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I grew up believing that capitalism somehow separates business from government, with each operating independently. Same with separation of church and state. Not

by Tempest1981 14d ago

I grew up believing that capitalism somehow separates business from government, with each operating independently. Same with separation of church and state. Not sure what to think of things now.

majorchord 14d ago
I think the problem, if we're talking about the US at least, is that the conservatives running things believe a government should be small... which inevitably leads to corporations virtually running parts of the government, unless you come up with a way to explicitly prevent that. But the people in power who want to remain in power would never go along with that.
- silon42 14d ago
  They need to add to their beliefs... corporations need to be small too.
  - majorchord 14d ago
    That's a great idea actually :) Personal wealth caps wouldn't hurt either.
- idiotsecant 14d ago
  I think it's pretty clear that the 'small' government preference of conservative politicians is a myth. They want to make the parts of government they don't like small and the parts they do like quite large. None of that takes away from your point, but I just wanted to deflate the meme slightly.
- svachalek 14d ago
  Those hypothetical "small government conservatives" are running up the Federal deficit at a breathtaking, unprecedented pace. What's actually going on is much simpler to explain as corruption.
- krapp 14d ago
  >, if we're talking about the US at least, is that the conservatives running things believe a government should be small No they don't, at least not anymore (if they ever really did.) They believe government shouldn't regulate business and shouldn't provide social welfare or invest in scientific research that doesn't align with their political ideology, but they absolutely believe in having a trillion dollar military industrial complex.
- psadauskas 14d ago
  The problem is, if the government is small, then corporations are more powerful and can run over it and do whatever they want. If government is large, then its a much juicier target for corporations to lobby and bribe to get what they want. It comes down to culture and society. A democratically elected government should ideally be there to represent the interests of the masses as a way to counteract the inevitable power of the wealthy elite. But when those same wealthy elite spend decades and billions of dollars to brainwash the masses by owning all the media companies and influencing school curriculums and so on, I don't see how the masses stand a chance over the long term.
- thrance 14d ago
  Conservatives don't actually believe in "small governments": that's just another posture they take, like "states rights" or "protect the kids". Deficit increases much faster under Republicans, and Trump is no exception. They're funnelling money to government contractors through a bloated military whose sole purpose is spending tax payer dollars on expensive and useless toys, that can't even win a war against a theocracy that's been under sanctions for half a century. That's how billionaires became so much richer under Trump, while the rest of the country goes to shit. And that's a common symptom of fascism: a merging of the State's and corporate interests.
  - tstrimple 13d ago
    I find it incredibly frustrating how effective conservative propaganda is even on non-conservatives. The "fiscal responsibility" and "small government" stuff are just examples of the many convenient statements they have with absolutely zero bearing on reality in how they legislate. So many liberals even believe conservatives used to "just want a slow and measured rate of change" and Trump is somehow different. All that has changed is the amount they feel comfortable saying out loud. They are dispensing with the euphemisms and saying what they really mean now.
HoldOnAMinute 14d ago
I used to think that sexual preferences were decoupled from business, capitalism, and government but gestures around recent events seem to have proven otherwise.
- croes 14d ago
  > I used to think that sexual preferences were decoupled from business, capitalism, and government When was that supposed to have happened?
  - HoldOnAMinute 14d ago
    I realize now that the point I was trying to make, did not come across at all. I will try to write better next time. TL;DR A global cabal of pedophiles runs the world
    - cindyllm 14d ago
      [dead]
- AlotOfReading 14d ago
  I suspect you'd have fewer downvotes if you had simply said "everything is political" instead of bringing up a contentious topic that isn't obviously related.
- dgellow 14d ago
  What are you gesturing at? That type of vague posting is, well… too vague, I have no idea what position you’re hinting at
  - HoldOnAMinute 14d ago
    The current state of world affairs
OkayPhysicist 14d ago
Fascism is Capitalism's immune response. Under stress, whether real or imagined, the rich and thus powerful begin dismantling the very systems that made them that way, gambling that their existing positions of influence will ensure their own survival (whether economic or literal).
- newspaper1 14d ago
  They certainly dismantle systems of support, but the "system that made them that way" is more often than not simply inheriting wealth and power.
  - OkayPhysicist 14d ago
    Capitalism only functions when you have people willing and able to buy your stuff, a state that protects fair dealings, and maintains a peaceful public order. It a luxury maintained by having a safe, stable society. Imagine trying to run a business in a world where the workers can just decide to cut you out of your investments, and then you have to hire PMCs to retake your factory, but then the PMCs renege on your contract and decide to run the business themselves. A society where you need to build your own roads, spread your own pro-business propaganda, and lack any recourse when your suppliers decide to take your money and run.
  - thrance 14d ago
    That's capitalism: owning capital attracts more capital, until eventually an all-powerful oligarchical class emerges that is then emboldened to dismantle the liberal democracy that built them, in order to secure their position at the top. Hitler was sponsored by the industrialists of its nation. So was Mussolini. So is Putin. So is Trump. "Capitalism is incompatible with democracy" is the one lesson I hope people finally learn by the end of this century.

I grew up believing that capitalism somehow separates business from government, with each operating independently. Same with separation of church and state. Not sure what to think of things now.

majorchord 14d ago

I think the problem, if we're talking about the US at least, is that the conservatives running things believe a government should be small... which inevitably leads to corporations virtually running parts of the government, unless you come up with a way to explicitly prevent that. But the people in power who want to remain in power would never go along with that.

silon42 14d ago
They need to add to their beliefs... corporations need to be small too.
- majorchord 14d ago
  That's a great idea actually :) Personal wealth caps wouldn't hurt either.
idiotsecant 14d ago
I think it's pretty clear that the 'small' government preference of conservative politicians is a myth. They want to make the parts of government they don't like small and the parts they do like quite large. None of that takes away from your point, but I just wanted to deflate the meme slightly.
svachalek 14d ago
Those hypothetical "small government conservatives" are running up the Federal deficit at a breathtaking, unprecedented pace. What's actually going on is much simpler to explain as corruption.
krapp 14d ago
>, if we're talking about the US at least, is that the conservatives running things believe a government should be small No they don't, at least not anymore (if they ever really did.) They believe government shouldn't regulate business and shouldn't provide social welfare or invest in scientific research that doesn't align with their political ideology, but they absolutely believe in having a trillion dollar military industrial complex.
psadauskas 14d ago
The problem is, if the government is small, then corporations are more powerful and can run over it and do whatever they want. If government is large, then its a much juicier target for corporations to lobby and bribe to get what they want. It comes down to culture and society. A democratically elected government should ideally be there to represent the interests of the masses as a way to counteract the inevitable power of the wealthy elite. But when those same wealthy elite spend decades and billions of dollars to brainwash the masses by owning all the media companies and influencing school curriculums and so on, I don't see how the masses stand a chance over the long term.
thrance 14d ago
Conservatives don't actually believe in "small governments": that's just another posture they take, like "states rights" or "protect the kids". Deficit increases much faster under Republicans, and Trump is no exception. They're funnelling money to government contractors through a bloated military whose sole purpose is spending tax payer dollars on expensive and useless toys, that can't even win a war against a theocracy that's been under sanctions for half a century. That's how billionaires became so much richer under Trump, while the rest of the country goes to shit. And that's a common symptom of fascism: a merging of the State's and corporate interests.
- tstrimple 13d ago
  I find it incredibly frustrating how effective conservative propaganda is even on non-conservatives. The "fiscal responsibility" and "small government" stuff are just examples of the many convenient statements they have with absolutely zero bearing on reality in how they legislate. So many liberals even believe conservatives used to "just want a slow and measured rate of change" and Trump is somehow different. All that has changed is the amount they feel comfortable saying out loud. They are dispensing with the euphemisms and saying what they really mean now.

HoldOnAMinute 14d ago

I used to think that sexual preferences were decoupled from business, capitalism, and government but gestures around recent events seem to have proven otherwise.

croes 14d ago
> I used to think that sexual preferences were decoupled from business, capitalism, and government When was that supposed to have happened?
- HoldOnAMinute 14d ago
  I realize now that the point I was trying to make, did not come across at all. I will try to write better next time. TL;DR A global cabal of pedophiles runs the world
  - cindyllm 14d ago
    [dead]
AlotOfReading 14d ago
I suspect you'd have fewer downvotes if you had simply said "everything is political" instead of bringing up a contentious topic that isn't obviously related.
dgellow 14d ago
What are you gesturing at? That type of vague posting is, well… too vague, I have no idea what position you’re hinting at
- HoldOnAMinute 14d ago
  The current state of world affairs

OkayPhysicist 14d ago

Fascism is Capitalism's immune response. Under stress, whether real or imagined, the rich and thus powerful begin dismantling the very systems that made them that way, gambling that their existing positions of influence will ensure their own survival (whether economic or literal).

newspaper1 14d ago
They certainly dismantle systems of support, but the "system that made them that way" is more often than not simply inheriting wealth and power.
- OkayPhysicist 14d ago
  Capitalism only functions when you have people willing and able to buy your stuff, a state that protects fair dealings, and maintains a peaceful public order. It a luxury maintained by having a safe, stable society. Imagine trying to run a business in a world where the workers can just decide to cut you out of your investments, and then you have to hire PMCs to retake your factory, but then the PMCs renege on your contract and decide to run the business themselves. A society where you need to build your own roads, spread your own pro-business propaganda, and lack any recourse when your suppliers decide to take your money and run.
- thrance 14d ago
  That's capitalism: owning capital attracts more capital, until eventually an all-powerful oligarchical class emerges that is then emboldened to dismantle the liberal democracy that built them, in order to secure their position at the top. Hitler was sponsored by the industrialists of its nation. So was Mussolini. So is Putin. So is Trump. "Capitalism is incompatible with democracy" is the one lesson I hope people finally learn by the end of this century.