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>If you say the sky is blue I'm going to say it's green because I'm so smart. Flat-earthers are definitely wrong about the shape of the earth, but even they ad

>If you say the sky is blue I'm going to say it's green because I'm so smart. Flat-earthers are definitely wrong about the shape of the earth, but even they admit the sky is blue, assuming they aren't afflicted with some unfortunate variety of colorblindness. In my observations of flat-earthers, they're people who reject the consensus surrounding a particular fact because they haven't observed that fact for themselves, which doesn't make them bad people or even crazy. I do rather enjoy their attempts to measure basic scientific facts about the earth, such as when a group of flat-earthers used lasers and the ocean to measure if the earth indeed has curvature. When the evidence incontrovertibly showed the earth indeed has sufficient curvature to match the scientific consensus, many participants were quite shocked. As long as they adjusted to the consensus, or even hypothesized another theory they felt worth testing, they're not crazy, just skeptical of authority.

aceofspades19 16d ago
But how could you be alive and not have observed that the earth is curved? Why does a mountain, building or ship disappear over the horizon if the earth is not curved? That alone should be sufficient evidence to believe that the scientific consensus on this is likely to be true. I have not observed directly that a human will die after 3 days without water but having experienced thirst & dehydration in limited amounts, I have no reason to doubt that is likely the case. That's what I don't understand supposed "rational" flat earthers. It's fine and somewhat rational to be skeptical of authority but when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it.
- waterheater 16d ago
  >But how could you be alive and not have observed that the earth is curved? I know someone who is almost 40 years old that has never left his hometown. He's a reasonable person who holds gainful employment, but from our conversations, he's never been in a skyscraper, flown on an airplane, taken a road trip into the mountains, or even hiked up a large hill, for that matter. He also lives in a land-locked city, so he's never seen the ocean. As such, he has never directly observed the earth to be curved. With all due respect, many people like him do exist in the world, and perhaps you're not acquainted with people like him. However, he is not a flat-earther because he spends much time on the Internet reading about the way the world works outside his hometown. Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment (not just going in an airplane or up a mountain) to measure the curvature of the earth for ourselves, but we trust the results of those who have, and we also accept that certain technologies like GPS as it is currently implemented can only work if the earth is round (not just in satellite orbits but also the slight-but-critical relativistic shift from a geosynchronous satellite). >when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it. That's cool, but many people are capable of believing in something for the sake of it. One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth.
  - aceofspades19 16d ago
    > With all due respect, many people like him do exist in the world, and perhaps you're not acquainted with people like him. Fair enough. > Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment I guess to a certain extent, but also knowing that I could perform such an experiment and come up with reproducible results. As well as the lack of any credible alternative theory that holds up to any sort of scientific rigor. > One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth. I would say that it's not really faith when its reproducible. For example, there is a small amount of faith that my brakes will slow down my car when approaching a corner, but I can test the brakes to know they should work, I can perform experiments with similar mechanisms to prove the basic physics, that all would have reproducible outcomes. So while there is a small amount of faith that some catastrophic failure won't happen, I would say its categorically different to believing things with almost no evidence. There is no reproducible experiment (at least that I know of) that you can even read about that proves the earth is flat.
    - waterheater 16d ago
      >So while there is a small amount of faith that some catastrophic failure won't happen, I would say its categorically different to believing things with almost no evidence. Evidence is the key. I don't know where you stand on the Gettier problem debate (is all knowledge just JTBs?), but the Gettier problem and black swan events show that all the evidence can point to one thing, yet something else might actually happen. So, did you really know, or did you just believe? I guess flat-earthers just reject what 99.9% of people accept as knowledge and hold it instead as competing belief with whatever alternative system quacks well enough to pass as a duck in their squinting eyes.
thinkingtoilet 16d ago
They are absolutely crazy. There is no defending it. It is something that makes stupid people feel smart. There are easy, verifiable experiments that can be done and they refuse to accept the outcome.
- waterheater 16d ago
  Have you ever called someone crazy, only for them to stop dead in their tracks and say, "wow, you're completely right, how could I have been so blind?" I haven't, and you probably haven't, though if you have, I'd love to hear that story. As I said, they're skeptical of authority and need to run the experiment themselves; some will even flip on flat-earthers who run the experiment and change their minds. Only those who perform the experiment and still refuse to accept the outcome are deserving of being left to their own crazed devices. Until then, they're just ignorant and/or weird.
  - Timon3 16d ago
    There are many, many, many examples of exactly that happening: they run experiments, the experiments prove them wrong, and they instantly declare the experiment to be wrong. You can easily find them on YouTube, IIRC a flat earth documentary on Netflix also features exactly this at the very end. There are of course people like grifters in the community who don't believe their own words, but the believers won't reason themselves out of this position they didn't reason themselves into.
  - thinkingtoilet 16d ago
    My goal is not to get them to see the light. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. These are profoundly stupid people who are confident they are right and everybody else is wrong.

aceofspades19 16d ago

But how could you be alive and not have observed that the earth is curved? Why does a mountain, building or ship disappear over the horizon if the earth is not curved? That alone should be sufficient evidence to believe that the scientific consensus on this is likely to be true. I have not observed directly that a human will die after 3 days without water but having experienced thirst & dehydration in limited amounts, I have no reason to doubt that is likely the case. That's what I don't understand supposed "rational" flat earthers. It's fine and somewhat rational to be skeptical of authority but when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it.

waterheater 16d ago
>But how could you be alive and not have observed that the earth is curved? I know someone who is almost 40 years old that has never left his hometown. He's a reasonable person who holds gainful employment, but from our conversations, he's never been in a skyscraper, flown on an airplane, taken a road trip into the mountains, or even hiked up a large hill, for that matter. He also lives in a land-locked city, so he's never seen the ocean. As such, he has never directly observed the earth to be curved. With all due respect, many people like him do exist in the world, and perhaps you're not acquainted with people like him. However, he is not a flat-earther because he spends much time on the Internet reading about the way the world works outside his hometown. Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment (not just going in an airplane or up a mountain) to measure the curvature of the earth for ourselves, but we trust the results of those who have, and we also accept that certain technologies like GPS as it is currently implemented can only work if the earth is round (not just in satellite orbits but also the slight-but-critical relativistic shift from a geosynchronous satellite). >when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it. That's cool, but many people are capable of believing in something for the sake of it. One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth.
- aceofspades19 16d ago
  > With all due respect, many people like him do exist in the world, and perhaps you're not acquainted with people like him. Fair enough. > Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment I guess to a certain extent, but also knowing that I could perform such an experiment and come up with reproducible results. As well as the lack of any credible alternative theory that holds up to any sort of scientific rigor. > One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth. I would say that it's not really faith when its reproducible. For example, there is a small amount of faith that my brakes will slow down my car when approaching a corner, but I can test the brakes to know they should work, I can perform experiments with similar mechanisms to prove the basic physics, that all would have reproducible outcomes. So while there is a small amount of faith that some catastrophic failure won't happen, I would say its categorically different to believing things with almost no evidence. There is no reproducible experiment (at least that I know of) that you can even read about that proves the earth is flat.
  - waterheater 16d ago
    >So while there is a small amount of faith that some catastrophic failure won't happen, I would say its categorically different to believing things with almost no evidence. Evidence is the key. I don't know where you stand on the Gettier problem debate (is all knowledge just JTBs?), but the Gettier problem and black swan events show that all the evidence can point to one thing, yet something else might actually happen. So, did you really know, or did you just believe? I guess flat-earthers just reject what 99.9% of people accept as knowledge and hold it instead as competing belief with whatever alternative system quacks well enough to pass as a duck in their squinting eyes.

thinkingtoilet 16d ago

They are absolutely crazy. There is no defending it. It is something that makes stupid people feel smart. There are easy, verifiable experiments that can be done and they refuse to accept the outcome.

waterheater 16d ago
Have you ever called someone crazy, only for them to stop dead in their tracks and say, "wow, you're completely right, how could I have been so blind?" I haven't, and you probably haven't, though if you have, I'd love to hear that story. As I said, they're skeptical of authority and need to run the experiment themselves; some will even flip on flat-earthers who run the experiment and change their minds. Only those who perform the experiment and still refuse to accept the outcome are deserving of being left to their own crazed devices. Until then, they're just ignorant and/or weird.
- Timon3 16d ago
  There are many, many, many examples of exactly that happening: they run experiments, the experiments prove them wrong, and they instantly declare the experiment to be wrong. You can easily find them on YouTube, IIRC a flat earth documentary on Netflix also features exactly this at the very end. There are of course people like grifters in the community who don't believe their own words, but the believers won't reason themselves out of this position they didn't reason themselves into.
- thinkingtoilet 16d ago
  My goal is not to get them to see the light. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. These are profoundly stupid people who are confident they are right and everybody else is wrong.