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> But I also spent some time with modern Spring Boot, and I get where the hate is coming from. There is a lot of complexity that just doesn't seem necessary at

> But I also spent some time with modern Spring Boot, and I get where the hate is coming from. There is a lot of complexity that just doesn't seem necessary at all. I'm sure there is some (very high) level of inherent project complexity where the massive number of abstractions and tools that Spring Boot gives you (and forces on you) actually starts turning into a net positive... And I'm also fairly sure that most projects don't quite break even, and would be better off with something more lightweight.

slopinthebag 17d ago
the functionality is often necessary and useful the question is if they're required to be implemented in the way that they are or if there is a simpler approach. also a lot of oop hate is 1) hatred of compile-time hierarchies attempting to match the domain model and 2) all the complexity in oop systems which isn't really inherent to OOP but made possible by it. oop doesn't require a PrototypeFactoryInjectorFactoryBean but it doesn't prevent you either :) on the flip side I've seen functional codebases which are also full of complexity because of how fragmented everything is, like 20 functions all applied when it could have been a single imperative one making it hard to keep track of what is happening. and of course everything in between
- danielbarla 16d ago
  Yes, I think we're in agreement overall. I think the hate typically comes from the mis-application of various tools; overly complex solutions for simple problems. There's nothing wrong with patterns per say, or frameworks that have complex building blocks for every conceivable permutation of relatively common issues. However, when people reach for unnecessarily complex tools out of laziness/habit, some hate is justified. I suspect this is very similar to what you're saying, and of course, it's not OOP specific. Functional languages have their patterns too, but instead of a famous book enumerating them, we have a famous blog post stating that functional languages are so awesome that they don't need patterns (or at least, this is how most people seem to interpret it).

slopinthebag 17d ago

the functionality is often necessary and useful the question is if they're required to be implemented in the way that they are or if there is a simpler approach. also a lot of oop hate is 1) hatred of compile-time hierarchies attempting to match the domain model and 2) all the complexity in oop systems which isn't really inherent to OOP but made possible by it. oop doesn't require a PrototypeFactoryInjectorFactoryBean but it doesn't prevent you either :) on the flip side I've seen functional codebases which are also full of complexity because of how fragmented everything is, like 20 functions all applied when it could have been a single imperative one making it hard to keep track of what is happening. and of course everything in between

danielbarla 16d ago
Yes, I think we're in agreement overall. I think the hate typically comes from the mis-application of various tools; overly complex solutions for simple problems. There's nothing wrong with patterns per say, or frameworks that have complex building blocks for every conceivable permutation of relatively common issues. However, when people reach for unnecessarily complex tools out of laziness/habit, some hate is justified. I suspect this is very similar to what you're saying, and of course, it's not OOP specific. Functional languages have their patterns too, but instead of a famous book enumerating them, we have a famous blog post stating that functional languages are so awesome that they don't need patterns (or at least, this is how most people seem to interpret it).