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If you want to rebuke me, then come with arguments. Just questioning the source is no counter argument. “Bad” sources can provide accurate information and “good

by huijzer 18d ago

If you want to rebuke me, then come with arguments. Just questioning the source is no counter argument. “Bad” sources can provide accurate information and “good” sources can provide inaccurate information. We need to go beyond mere categorization by source and use logic instead (which computer scientists know) to find what is true and what is not. Also that some other person was possibly wicked doesn’t counter my point either. Both can be wicked at the same time according to basic logic since the one doesn’t exclude the other.

delis-thumbs-7e 17d ago
What logic supports that Franklin was a member of Hellfire Club? From what premises can we deduct that it is unquestionably true? Or perhaps we inductively come into that conclusion based on the fact that he knew the founder, and some site on the internet - with plenty of reason to exaggerate - says so? If any source is equally valid, I can just quickly write an html-file that says Franklin was an alien from other planet, and then it is up to you to prove it wrong. Where’s the logic in that? When discussing a historic figure, we usually base our claim on primary sources (such as Franklin or other people at the time either directly saying he was member of the club, or there being a member register or other such clear evidence) or at least on primary sources that we can trust to base their research on primary sources and strong evidence. Otherwise we could just say anything about anything. Maybe Abraham Lincoln was part of Hell’s Angels. And my example of Peter The Not-So-Great’s debauchery of course is not rebuke, rather it is an example that real history gives far more interesting examples of behaviour you describe and is a million times crazier that anything anyone can fantasise. Therefore we don’t need to make up stories.
- huijzer 17d ago
  > What logic supports that Franklin was a member of Hellfire Club? According to the book The Hellfire Clubs by Evelyn Lord (2010), "A key figure and someone who could have been a link between British hell-fire clubs and colonial America was Benjamin Franklin. Franklin was intimate with Sir Francis Dashwood and other Medmenham Friars in England, and an attack on Cotton Mather in 1721 by Benjamin’s brother James in his newspaper the New England Courant had resulted in Mather calling the Franklins and their friends a ‘Hell-Fire Club’.[59] The date is significant, as this is the year that the Duke of Wharton’s alleged Hell-Fire Club was in operation. We know that the Franklin was aware of this club as on 6 May 1721 the New England Courant had published an account of the London club taken from Applebee’s Journal, which, being sensational news of blasphemy and supposed sexual orgies, boosted the circulation of Franklin’s paper considerably. News of the Hell-Fire Club and the King’s proclamation against scandalous clubs was also published in Boston. Tavern rumour suggested that Boston had its own Hell-Fire Club, of which James Franklin was alleged to be a prominent member.[60]" Also one of the Hellfire Caves was named in honor of Benjamin Franklin, namely Franklin's Cave. Also Francis Dashwood was the founder of the Hellfire Club and he and Franklin were good friends. Then the organization that currently operates the caves writes that "Benjamin Franklin, a great friend of Sir Francis, was also a visitor to the Caves." (https://www.westwycombeestate.co.uk/the-hellfire-caves https://www.westwycombeestate.co.uk/the-hellfire-caves) So all in all, there seems to be no conclusive evidence proving that Benjamin Franklin was a member of the Hellfire Club, but it is also hard to make the argument that he for certain was not a member or never visited a gathering. Given that he was friends with the founder, who also named one of the caves after him, it is likely that he at least visited one event. [59]: C.A. Lopez and E.W. Herbert, The Private Franklin, 1975, 12. [60]: J.A.L. Leman, The Life of Benjamin Franklin, Vol. I: 1706–1730, 2005, 110–11, 133
  - delis-thumbs-7e 17d ago
    > So all in all, there seems to be no conclusive evidence This is what I am saying. Can you provide me with conclusive evidence that you are not a member of Hell’s Angels? Because if you can’t, there’s always a doubt about your character… This is why the burden of broof is on the one making the claim. It works the same in historical research. Basically you have hearsay and a tavern rumour, but that is hardly any evidence of anything. This is why biographers and real historians hardly discuss it. There’s no proof and besides, it kinda is not that interesting anyway. Of course Franklin could have visited every meeting, but then any proof of it has disappeared. But occam’s razor would conclude, that he probably just wasn’t interested in the whole thing.
    - IAmBroom 16d ago
      You are repeatedly asking for proof of a negative, which can't be done, so your requests are meaningless. You made the original claim (that Franklin was a member); now the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence.

by huijzer 18d ago

delis-thumbs-7e 17d ago

What logic supports that Franklin was a member of Hellfire Club? From what premises can we deduct that it is unquestionably true? Or perhaps we inductively come into that conclusion based on the fact that he knew the founder, and some site on the internet - with plenty of reason to exaggerate - says so? If any source is equally valid, I can just quickly write an html-file that says Franklin was an alien from other planet, and then it is up to you to prove it wrong. Where’s the logic in that? When discussing a historic figure, we usually base our claim on primary sources (such as Franklin or other people at the time either directly saying he was member of the club, or there being a member register or other such clear evidence) or at least on primary sources that we can trust to base their research on primary sources and strong evidence. Otherwise we could just say anything about anything. Maybe Abraham Lincoln was part of Hell’s Angels. And my example of Peter The Not-So-Great’s debauchery of course is not rebuke, rather it is an example that real history gives far more interesting examples of behaviour you describe and is a million times crazier that anything anyone can fantasise. Therefore we don’t need to make up stories.

huijzer 17d ago
> What logic supports that Franklin was a member of Hellfire Club? According to the book The Hellfire Clubs by Evelyn Lord (2010), "A key figure and someone who could have been a link between British hell-fire clubs and colonial America was Benjamin Franklin. Franklin was intimate with Sir Francis Dashwood and other Medmenham Friars in England, and an attack on Cotton Mather in 1721 by Benjamin’s brother James in his newspaper the New England Courant had resulted in Mather calling the Franklins and their friends a ‘Hell-Fire Club’.[59] The date is significant, as this is the year that the Duke of Wharton’s alleged Hell-Fire Club was in operation. We know that the Franklin was aware of this club as on 6 May 1721 the New England Courant had published an account of the London club taken from Applebee’s Journal, which, being sensational news of blasphemy and supposed sexual orgies, boosted the circulation of Franklin’s paper considerably. News of the Hell-Fire Club and the King’s proclamation against scandalous clubs was also published in Boston. Tavern rumour suggested that Boston had its own Hell-Fire Club, of which James Franklin was alleged to be a prominent member.[60]" Also one of the Hellfire Caves was named in honor of Benjamin Franklin, namely Franklin's Cave. Also Francis Dashwood was the founder of the Hellfire Club and he and Franklin were good friends. Then the organization that currently operates the caves writes that "Benjamin Franklin, a great friend of Sir Francis, was also a visitor to the Caves." (https://www.westwycombeestate.co.uk/the-hellfire-caves https://www.westwycombeestate.co.uk/the-hellfire-caves) So all in all, there seems to be no conclusive evidence proving that Benjamin Franklin was a member of the Hellfire Club, but it is also hard to make the argument that he for certain was not a member or never visited a gathering. Given that he was friends with the founder, who also named one of the caves after him, it is likely that he at least visited one event. [59]: C.A. Lopez and E.W. Herbert, The Private Franklin, 1975, 12. [60]: J.A.L. Leman, The Life of Benjamin Franklin, Vol. I: 1706–1730, 2005, 110–11, 133
- delis-thumbs-7e 17d ago
  > So all in all, there seems to be no conclusive evidence This is what I am saying. Can you provide me with conclusive evidence that you are not a member of Hell’s Angels? Because if you can’t, there’s always a doubt about your character… This is why the burden of broof is on the one making the claim. It works the same in historical research. Basically you have hearsay and a tavern rumour, but that is hardly any evidence of anything. This is why biographers and real historians hardly discuss it. There’s no proof and besides, it kinda is not that interesting anyway. Of course Franklin could have visited every meeting, but then any proof of it has disappeared. But occam’s razor would conclude, that he probably just wasn’t interested in the whole thing.
  - IAmBroom 16d ago
    You are repeatedly asking for proof of a negative, which can't be done, so your requests are meaningless. You made the original claim (that Franklin was a member); now the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence.