7 ms·

If you can't see why your analogy is deeply broken I honestly don't know what to do for you.

by unknownfuture 20d ago

LPisGood 20d ago
It’s not clear to me why people believe determinism has some special property.
- bad_haircut72 20d ago
  When you read the code thats been generated and submit it as a PR it becomes deterministic
- unknownfuture 20d ago
  You still don't get it. Think about the act of writing with a pen. Now think about what a typewriter does in that context. Now think about what an LLM does in that context. Can you reason about how those are vastly different tools within the context of writing or communication, so much so that the comparison doesn't actually make any sense? Hint: it has nothing to do with determinism. It has to do with the nature of the work itself and the role of the person doing it. As an aside, this whole exchange really is just a perfect encapsulation of the outcome-focused versus process-focused individual. The outcome-focused person sees words in a document and whether an LLM produced them or a human typed them is a distinction without a difference. The process-focused person is utterly baffled that anyone could think those are in any way equivalent.
  - qarl2 20d ago
    > You still don't get it. HEH. I just read your comment three times and I definitely don't get it. I think its entire point is to express outrage about not getting it, rather than actually explain it.
    - deleted 20d ago
      [deleted]
    - unknownfuture 20d ago
      Weird, I don't think any of my comments express outrage Bafflement? Certainly. Maybe a little sadness at the lack of understanding of, or appreciation for, the creative process? Sure. Outrage? Nah.
      - qarl2 20d ago
        I think it was your phrase starting with the word "Hint:". I only see that construction used condescendingly.
        unknownfuture 20d ago
        Yup, fair point, totally valid criticism.
Ahrgo 19d ago
You don't know HOW someone is using AI. I for example, let the AI generate inbetween reports for a hobby project. These reports describe me how the project looks, stages, progress, etc. I do know plenty about this particular project. Also i wrote tons and tons of CRUD apps, do I really loose anything if that one quiz i did for learning, i don't understand in detail?
- unknownfuture 19d ago
  Yeah you're still missing the point. A more appropriate analogy for what you just described might be writing vs ghost writing. But it's certainly not handwriting vs typewriter. Note: there's no implied value judgement here. My point is that the analogy that LLMs are equivalent to typewriters is fundamentally broken. Using an LLM to create text, and writing using writing tools, are simply completely different activities that just happen to lead to (at least superficially) the same outcomes. Similarly, downloading a vase and 3D printing it isn't the same as making pottery. Programming a knitting machine to make socks for you isn't knitting. Putting text on paper using a printer isn't calligraphy. And I'd argue we're going to collectively conclude that assembling software systems using AI isn't coding. Again: no value judgement. But life isn't always just about outcomes. Process does, in fact, matter, and I think it's important we maintain these distinctions. It's genuinely amazing and baffling to me that a non-trivial number of people around here don't seem to grok that.

If you can't see why your analogy is deeply broken I honestly don't know what to do for you.

LPisGood 20d ago

It’s not clear to me why people believe determinism has some special property.

bad_haircut72 20d ago
When you read the code thats been generated and submit it as a PR it becomes deterministic
unknownfuture 20d ago
You still don't get it. Think about the act of writing with a pen. Now think about what a typewriter does in that context. Now think about what an LLM does in that context. Can you reason about how those are vastly different tools within the context of writing or communication, so much so that the comparison doesn't actually make any sense? Hint: it has nothing to do with determinism. It has to do with the nature of the work itself and the role of the person doing it. As an aside, this whole exchange really is just a perfect encapsulation of the outcome-focused versus process-focused individual. The outcome-focused person sees words in a document and whether an LLM produced them or a human typed them is a distinction without a difference. The process-focused person is utterly baffled that anyone could think those are in any way equivalent.
- qarl2 20d ago
  > You still don't get it. HEH. I just read your comment three times and I definitely don't get it. I think its entire point is to express outrage about not getting it, rather than actually explain it.
  - deleted 20d ago
    [deleted]
  - unknownfuture 20d ago
    Weird, I don't think any of my comments express outrage Bafflement? Certainly. Maybe a little sadness at the lack of understanding of, or appreciation for, the creative process? Sure. Outrage? Nah.
    - qarl2 20d ago
      I think it was your phrase starting with the word "Hint:". I only see that construction used condescendingly.
      - unknownfuture 20d ago
        Yup, fair point, totally valid criticism.

Ahrgo 19d ago

You don't know HOW someone is using AI. I for example, let the AI generate inbetween reports for a hobby project. These reports describe me how the project looks, stages, progress, etc. I do know plenty about this particular project. Also i wrote tons and tons of CRUD apps, do I really loose anything if that one quiz i did for learning, i don't understand in detail?

unknownfuture 19d ago
Yeah you're still missing the point. A more appropriate analogy for what you just described might be writing vs ghost writing. But it's certainly not handwriting vs typewriter. Note: there's no implied value judgement here. My point is that the analogy that LLMs are equivalent to typewriters is fundamentally broken. Using an LLM to create text, and writing using writing tools, are simply completely different activities that just happen to lead to (at least superficially) the same outcomes. Similarly, downloading a vase and 3D printing it isn't the same as making pottery. Programming a knitting machine to make socks for you isn't knitting. Putting text on paper using a printer isn't calligraphy. And I'd argue we're going to collectively conclude that assembling software systems using AI isn't coding. Again: no value judgement. But life isn't always just about outcomes. Process does, in fact, matter, and I think it's important we maintain these distinctions. It's genuinely amazing and baffling to me that a non-trivial number of people around here don't seem to grok that.