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I tend to stay away from topics like this which generalize and basically tell a whole continent they are living their lives "wrongly". But I have to say, AC is

I tend to stay away from topics like this which generalize and basically tell a whole continent they are living their lives "wrongly". But I have to say, AC is not "banned" anywhere in Europe, apart from certain cantons of Switzerland. In Germany you have a right to AC actually, if your community votes to "veto" the installation a court can overturn that.

dguest 20d ago
Brought to you by an American libertarian think tank [1], no less. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute
- jjgreen 20d ago
  Today seems to be international AC shilling day https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49463831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49463831
- chrystalkey 20d ago
  In what way?
  - cholantesh 20d ago
    "HumanProgress.org is a project of the Cato Institute with major support from the John Templeton Foundation and the Searle Freedom Trust, as well as additional funding from the B & E Collins Foundation, and William H. Donner Foundation." ~ https://humanprogress.org/about/ https://humanprogress.org/about/
danielvaughn 20d ago
To be fair, the article doesn't say that AC is banned - it mostly focuses on the HOA-style local ordinances and permits that discourage people from using AC.
kleiba2 20d ago
> But I have to say, AC is not "banned" anywhere in Europe Exactly, the whole premise of the article is a bit of a strawman. In fact, where I live, the demand for AC installation is so high that you have to wait months for a company to install a unit for you. These extreme heat waves are a fairly new phenomenon, summers in central Europe just didn't use to get so hot for such a long stretch of time even a few decades ago. Now that they've become the way they are, people are doing what? Correct, installing AC units. Imagine that. But let's not forget that energy is also on average a lot more expensive in Europe than in the US. The cost plus environmental concerns, which seem to fair less high in the public conscience on the other side of the Atlantic, have also been reasons why people were not keen on AC units in the past.
- throwaway473825 20d ago
  > But let's not forget that energy is also on average a lot more expensive in Europe than in the US. The cost plus environmental concerns, which seem to fair less high in the public conscience on the other side of the Atlantic, have also been reasons why people were not keen on AC units in the past. The price of energy in Europe is largely determined by taxes and policy costs. Gas is mostly unencumbered. Electricity could be as well. It's a political choice to make electricity expensive. Furthermore, given that many Europeans couldn't care less about the negative externalities of gas heating, it's very hard to argue that this is a major concern for AC, especially when AC is already mainstream in cars.
  - kleiba2 19d ago
    Traditionally, for heating your house, you had the choice between coal, oil, and gas. Electric heating wasn't a widespread alternative, esp. because of the price of electricity. Even today, heat pumps consume a fair amount of electricity. Solar panels can offset the cost but in many parts of Europe, the panels are not producing enough power in the winter, which is when you naturally want to run a heater. And regarding ACs in cars: you will certainly agree that cooling the inside of a car for the duration of a drive vs. the inside of a whole house (or even just selected rooms) for the whole day differ from each other by orders of magnitude regarding the energy required.
matt-p 20d ago
It’s not banned, but getting permission to install the outside unit is essentially “hard” in some parts of Europe. In England, if you own a house, you generally have permitted development rights to install one, subject to some fairly common-sense rules. If you live in a flat, though, it’s a very different story: you will need planning permission *as well as* freeholder consent, and the process generally involves engineering/structural/architect drawings and freehold-consent paperwork. The freeholder can also charge you their legal and administration costs, even if they ultimately reject the application. Essentially it's >5K of paperwork which might be wasted if it's rejected even just to install a single 5KW split. So in the hottest parts of London and other major cities, where a large proportion of people live in flats, installing AC can be very difficult in practice. In the cooler commuter towns, where houses are much more common, it’s considerably easier. Why can't they build it into new flat blocks/houses? Nothing outright prevents it but everyone does their best to discourage it. The London Plan, for example, uses a “cooling hierarchy” which 'seeks to reduce any potential overheating and also the need to cool a building through active cooling measures' so good luck getting planning for it.
- kwarcode 20d ago
  > In the UK You mean "In England".
  - matt-p 20d ago
    I mean yes, true, thank you - fixed. Though I honestly thought permitted development existed for them in scotland and stuff too.
    - deleted 20d ago
      [deleted]
    - kwarcode 20d ago
      Actually there is permitted development in Scotland but flats aren't excluded. There's no "Part P" either so an AC could be DIY with no notification or fees.

dguest 20d ago

Brought to you by an American libertarian think tank [1], no less. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute

jjgreen 20d ago
Today seems to be international AC shilling day https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49463831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49463831
chrystalkey 20d ago
In what way?
- cholantesh 20d ago
  "HumanProgress.org is a project of the Cato Institute with major support from the John Templeton Foundation and the Searle Freedom Trust, as well as additional funding from the B & E Collins Foundation, and William H. Donner Foundation." ~ https://humanprogress.org/about/ https://humanprogress.org/about/

danielvaughn 20d ago

To be fair, the article doesn't say that AC is banned - it mostly focuses on the HOA-style local ordinances and permits that discourage people from using AC.

kleiba2 20d ago

> But I have to say, AC is not "banned" anywhere in Europe Exactly, the whole premise of the article is a bit of a strawman. In fact, where I live, the demand for AC installation is so high that you have to wait months for a company to install a unit for you. These extreme heat waves are a fairly new phenomenon, summers in central Europe just didn't use to get so hot for such a long stretch of time even a few decades ago. Now that they've become the way they are, people are doing what? Correct, installing AC units. Imagine that. But let's not forget that energy is also on average a lot more expensive in Europe than in the US. The cost plus environmental concerns, which seem to fair less high in the public conscience on the other side of the Atlantic, have also been reasons why people were not keen on AC units in the past.

throwaway473825 20d ago
> But let's not forget that energy is also on average a lot more expensive in Europe than in the US. The cost plus environmental concerns, which seem to fair less high in the public conscience on the other side of the Atlantic, have also been reasons why people were not keen on AC units in the past. The price of energy in Europe is largely determined by taxes and policy costs. Gas is mostly unencumbered. Electricity could be as well. It's a political choice to make electricity expensive. Furthermore, given that many Europeans couldn't care less about the negative externalities of gas heating, it's very hard to argue that this is a major concern for AC, especially when AC is already mainstream in cars.
- kleiba2 19d ago
  Traditionally, for heating your house, you had the choice between coal, oil, and gas. Electric heating wasn't a widespread alternative, esp. because of the price of electricity. Even today, heat pumps consume a fair amount of electricity. Solar panels can offset the cost but in many parts of Europe, the panels are not producing enough power in the winter, which is when you naturally want to run a heater. And regarding ACs in cars: you will certainly agree that cooling the inside of a car for the duration of a drive vs. the inside of a whole house (or even just selected rooms) for the whole day differ from each other by orders of magnitude regarding the energy required.

matt-p 20d ago

It’s not banned, but getting permission to install the outside unit is essentially “hard” in some parts of Europe. In England, if you own a house, you generally have permitted development rights to install one, subject to some fairly common-sense rules. If you live in a flat, though, it’s a very different story: you will need planning permission *as well as* freeholder consent, and the process generally involves engineering/structural/architect drawings and freehold-consent paperwork. The freeholder can also charge you their legal and administration costs, even if they ultimately reject the application. Essentially it's >5K of paperwork which might be wasted if it's rejected even just to install a single 5KW split. So in the hottest parts of London and other major cities, where a large proportion of people live in flats, installing AC can be very difficult in practice. In the cooler commuter towns, where houses are much more common, it’s considerably easier. Why can't they build it into new flat blocks/houses? Nothing outright prevents it but everyone does their best to discourage it. The London Plan, for example, uses a “cooling hierarchy” which 'seeks to reduce any potential overheating and also the need to cool a building through active cooling measures' so good luck getting planning for it.

kwarcode 20d ago
> In the UK You mean "In England".
- matt-p 20d ago
  I mean yes, true, thank you - fixed. Though I honestly thought permitted development existed for them in scotland and stuff too.
  - deleted 20d ago
    [deleted]
  - kwarcode 20d ago
    Actually there is permitted development in Scotland but flats aren't excluded. There's no "Part P" either so an AC could be DIY with no notification or fees.