5 ms·

Look around the thread and notice how little the comments defending these policies have to say about the policies themselves. Instead, what they all have in com

by foltik 23d ago

Look around the thread and notice how little the comments defending these policies have to say about the policies themselves. Instead, what they all have in common is a vague underlying fear of being displaced, or sense that something owed to them is being taken.

dcow 22d ago
The program has always "threatened" to displace citizens. That's not new and if that were the only reason motivating people then why wait till now to complain? Frankly I don't care if I'm fairly displaced. That's meritocracy at work. The reality is the program has been abused and stretched far beyond its intent by corporations in pursuit of cheap (I’d argue slave) labor. You cannot, with a straight face, argue that the spirit of the program is being upheld. Come on. People are upset because they are realizing that they haven't been playing fair--the game's been rigged this whole time. I think that's a very understandable and normal human emotion all things considered. Fraud is illegal. And when people enrich themselves fraudulently it does tend to feel like something has been taken by someone not entitled to it, yes. That works for both the corporations fraudulently hiring H1B and the fraudulent credentialing rings being operated to supply the labor. It is sad that good people and valid visa holders are swept up in this. Aim your ire at the fraudsters, not the people trying to enforce the law and fix the problem.
- deleted 22d ago
  [deleted]
- eesmith 22d ago
  Are you calling for open border with no controls? That's the only way to get meritocracy. The system is set up so the casino wins. You cannot, with a straight face, argue the odds are in your favor, but there are rules about how the casino works, both formal and informal. When a casino only investigates cases where someone wins $1 million on the slots, to see if there's a fault in the system, while never investigating all the times that people lose, that's technically within the legal system, but the spirit of gambling is not being upheld, and people get upset. Just ask Katerina Bookman. The immigration system, with the thumb firmly in favor of the interests of capital, is still based on the expectation of good faith by those running the system, as doing otherwise results in orders of magnitude more rules, or an alternate set of unspoken rules based more on vibes. "Pausing" is a bad faith breaking of the spirit of the system.
  - somenameforme 22d ago
    I think what he's saying is if a corporation has a genuine need of some high specialist in a skill, and no American has that skill - then okay, such is life - bring in a foreign worker. But corporations have abused the system to unnecessarily employ immigrant labor in lieu of American, because immigrant workers not only tend to earn well below market wages (which is supposed to be illegal), but also tend to be far more easily coerced and loyal because their visa is dependent upon them staying with their employer.
    - eesmith 22d ago
      If true, that interpretation hardly seems relevant given that all immigrant visa applications are paused, with the goal of determining whether immigrants are likely to become dependent on public benefits in the US. It's not simply a pause on immigration by people applying for a category which requires special expertise.
      - dcow 22d ago
        I suggest you read up on how we got here.
        eesmith 22d ago
        I am well aware of US immigration law history and the views of the current administration regarding immigration. How does reading up on the history change how the stated reason for this pause has nothing to do with the meritocracy issues, fraudulent H1B visas, etc. that you complained about? Do you think those labor issues will be improved after the training is finished, and if so, why? How does your earlier comment explain why visas based on family preference are also apparently on pause as well? Of course if we look at the history of US immigration we can easily see how for over 150 years it was explicitly set up to support a white supremacist race-based culture, which broke down with the civil rights movement and the incoherency of "whiteness" as a legal or scientific definition (are Arabs white? Are Asian Indians white? Are Chinese immigrants in Mississippi "white"? - https://archive.org/details/mississippichine0000loew/page/n7/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/mississippichine0000loew/page/n7...). With the current reactionary administration's antipathy towards nearly all immigration, except seemingly white South Africans and Nordics, it's far easier to interpret this action as deliberately gumming up the works and causing distress, rather than some systemic beneficial labor reform like what you want. I assume that's what you mean by reading up on how we got here?
- g3f32r 22d ago
  > Frankly I don't care if I'm fairly displaced. That's meritocracy at work. Right, The concept of a "meritocracy" only works if everyone is agreeing to the core tenets. If any group starts expressing in-group bias, then that group exponentially grows and will end up displacing all other, more meritocratic, groups. --- H1Bs visas allow for corporations to sidestep meritocracy because they can leverage the foreigner into 70 hour work weeks. F1 visas allow for corporations to sidestep meritocracy because they get a five year exemption on some taxes for that employee. etc for all the programs.
- Izkata 22d ago
  > That's not new and if that were the only reason motivating people then why wait till now to complain? I've been hearing the complaining for over a decade I think, and it's been steadily growing the whole time. It's just only now that it's reached you, and from others' comments on here I feel like it's reached a tipping point where it's finally breaking into their filter bubbles and they're surprised and confused about how strong it is.
CTDOCodebases 22d ago
"Instead, what they all have in common is a vague underlying fear of being displaced, or sense that something owed to them is being taken." This is true for both the citizens and the immigrants.
- pjc50 22d ago
  The immigrants have something very specific and real on the line.
  - jpadkins 22d ago
    So do the natives.
- foltik 22d ago
  This comment is itself a perfect example of what I was talking about. Nobody feels entitled to a visa. It’s aspirational, like applying to a job. People do it because they want a better life, knowing full well they could be denied, or that it may well be temporary. But if you believe immigrants could take something from you, like your job or housing, then it makes sense you’d project this idea of entitlement onto them. As if by applying they’re implicitly laying claim to something owed to you, a citizen. In reality the economy is not a fixed pie and nothing is being taken from you. Immigrants take jobs, but they also spend money, pay taxes, start businesses, and need houses built, all of which leads to more jobs. It’s a positive feedback loop that benefits everyone, and a big part of how America’s economy grew into what it is today.
  - throw83849499 22d ago
    Maybe compare it from point of asian phd, who follows all rules, spends thousands of dollars, and years applying for job and visas... and much better treatment of people, who move to US illegally. I stopped traveling to US, because during covid goverment, could not be even bothered to clarify entry rules (what sort of booster shots were needed etc). At the same time south border was widely opened. Clear rules and fair game, are the bare minimum! There are fixed number of jobs, fixed number of houses to rent... it is not infinitive baloon.
eudamoniac 22d ago
It's okay to be against immigration.
Lagoon3384_SWE 22d ago
[dead]

by foltik 23d ago

dcow 22d ago

The program has always "threatened" to displace citizens. That's not new and if that were the only reason motivating people then why wait till now to complain? Frankly I don't care if I'm fairly displaced. That's meritocracy at work. The reality is the program has been abused and stretched far beyond its intent by corporations in pursuit of cheap (I’d argue slave) labor. You cannot, with a straight face, argue that the spirit of the program is being upheld. Come on. People are upset because they are realizing that they haven't been playing fair--the game's been rigged this whole time. I think that's a very understandable and normal human emotion all things considered. Fraud is illegal. And when people enrich themselves fraudulently it does tend to feel like something has been taken by someone not entitled to it, yes. That works for both the corporations fraudulently hiring H1B and the fraudulent credentialing rings being operated to supply the labor. It is sad that good people and valid visa holders are swept up in this. Aim your ire at the fraudsters, not the people trying to enforce the law and fix the problem.

deleted 22d ago
[deleted]
eesmith 22d ago
Are you calling for open border with no controls? That's the only way to get meritocracy. The system is set up so the casino wins. You cannot, with a straight face, argue the odds are in your favor, but there are rules about how the casino works, both formal and informal. When a casino only investigates cases where someone wins $1 million on the slots, to see if there's a fault in the system, while never investigating all the times that people lose, that's technically within the legal system, but the spirit of gambling is not being upheld, and people get upset. Just ask Katerina Bookman. The immigration system, with the thumb firmly in favor of the interests of capital, is still based on the expectation of good faith by those running the system, as doing otherwise results in orders of magnitude more rules, or an alternate set of unspoken rules based more on vibes. "Pausing" is a bad faith breaking of the spirit of the system.
- somenameforme 22d ago
  I think what he's saying is if a corporation has a genuine need of some high specialist in a skill, and no American has that skill - then okay, such is life - bring in a foreign worker. But corporations have abused the system to unnecessarily employ immigrant labor in lieu of American, because immigrant workers not only tend to earn well below market wages (which is supposed to be illegal), but also tend to be far more easily coerced and loyal because their visa is dependent upon them staying with their employer.
  - eesmith 22d ago
    If true, that interpretation hardly seems relevant given that all immigrant visa applications are paused, with the goal of determining whether immigrants are likely to become dependent on public benefits in the US. It's not simply a pause on immigration by people applying for a category which requires special expertise.
    - dcow 22d ago
      I suggest you read up on how we got here.
      - eesmith 22d ago
        I am well aware of US immigration law history and the views of the current administration regarding immigration. How does reading up on the history change how the stated reason for this pause has nothing to do with the meritocracy issues, fraudulent H1B visas, etc. that you complained about? Do you think those labor issues will be improved after the training is finished, and if so, why? How does your earlier comment explain why visas based on family preference are also apparently on pause as well? Of course if we look at the history of US immigration we can easily see how for over 150 years it was explicitly set up to support a white supremacist race-based culture, which broke down with the civil rights movement and the incoherency of "whiteness" as a legal or scientific definition (are Arabs white? Are Asian Indians white? Are Chinese immigrants in Mississippi "white"? - https://archive.org/details/mississippichine0000loew/page/n7/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/mississippichine0000loew/page/n7...). With the current reactionary administration's antipathy towards nearly all immigration, except seemingly white South Africans and Nordics, it's far easier to interpret this action as deliberately gumming up the works and causing distress, rather than some systemic beneficial labor reform like what you want. I assume that's what you mean by reading up on how we got here?
g3f32r 22d ago
> Frankly I don't care if I'm fairly displaced. That's meritocracy at work. Right, The concept of a "meritocracy" only works if everyone is agreeing to the core tenets. If any group starts expressing in-group bias, then that group exponentially grows and will end up displacing all other, more meritocratic, groups. --- H1Bs visas allow for corporations to sidestep meritocracy because they can leverage the foreigner into 70 hour work weeks. F1 visas allow for corporations to sidestep meritocracy because they get a five year exemption on some taxes for that employee. etc for all the programs.
Izkata 22d ago
> That's not new and if that were the only reason motivating people then why wait till now to complain? I've been hearing the complaining for over a decade I think, and it's been steadily growing the whole time. It's just only now that it's reached you, and from others' comments on here I feel like it's reached a tipping point where it's finally breaking into their filter bubbles and they're surprised and confused about how strong it is.

CTDOCodebases 22d ago

"Instead, what they all have in common is a vague underlying fear of being displaced, or sense that something owed to them is being taken." This is true for both the citizens and the immigrants.

pjc50 22d ago
The immigrants have something very specific and real on the line.
- jpadkins 22d ago
  So do the natives.
foltik 22d ago
This comment is itself a perfect example of what I was talking about. Nobody feels entitled to a visa. It’s aspirational, like applying to a job. People do it because they want a better life, knowing full well they could be denied, or that it may well be temporary. But if you believe immigrants could take something from you, like your job or housing, then it makes sense you’d project this idea of entitlement onto them. As if by applying they’re implicitly laying claim to something owed to you, a citizen. In reality the economy is not a fixed pie and nothing is being taken from you. Immigrants take jobs, but they also spend money, pay taxes, start businesses, and need houses built, all of which leads to more jobs. It’s a positive feedback loop that benefits everyone, and a big part of how America’s economy grew into what it is today.
- throw83849499 22d ago
  Maybe compare it from point of asian phd, who follows all rules, spends thousands of dollars, and years applying for job and visas... and much better treatment of people, who move to US illegally. I stopped traveling to US, because during covid goverment, could not be even bothered to clarify entry rules (what sort of booster shots were needed etc). At the same time south border was widely opened. Clear rules and fair game, are the bare minimum! There are fixed number of jobs, fixed number of houses to rent... it is not infinitive baloon.

eudamoniac 22d ago

It's okay to be against immigration.

Lagoon3384_SWE 22d ago

[dead]