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It depends on how long Apple want to support the devices, if the support matches the longevity of the devices maybe nobody really needs Asahi. I believe all In

by benoau 21d ago

It depends on how long Apple want to support the devices, if the support matches the longevity of the devices maybe nobody really needs Asahi. I believe all Intel Macs have received their final macOS version now so it is almost time for Apple to make that decision for the M1 generation. I think an M1 Pro, Max or Ultra (or even an M1 with 16GB of RAM) still has many good years left.

selfhoster1312 21d ago
OS LTS support barely matters when planned obsolescence is baked in at the hardware level. Wearing parts (eg. SSD) are soldered on newer macs and there's intensive efforts to make sure even if you have the tools you can't repair it. Parts aren't available but if you get your hands on there's cryptographic parts pairing so it more or less can't be replaced: https://rossmanngroup.com/services/ssd-data-recovery/macbook/m-series-soldered-nand-recovery https://rossmanngroup.com/services/ssd-data-recovery/macbook... Overall, i wouldn't count on "many good years left".
- kalleboo 21d ago
  My MacBook Pro M1 is 5 years old now and the SSD wear level is at 4%. SSD wear is not a problem for normal users. Meanwhile Apple's standard OS support period is 7 years, that's a much more imminent limit. Not saying that I support non-user-replaceable SSDs, but if your goal is reducing e-waste, there are more impactful changes to make.
  - selfhoster1312 21d ago
    Thanks, that's a fair data point. Although i'm sure it depends on actual user workloads. I'm not saying that I support closed-source firmware, locked bootloaders, or even that replacing SSDs is the one true path to sustainability. I believe it's a whole field and we shouldn't tolerate compromises on any level. It should be 100% illegal in any civilized country to sell the kind of lame hardware we have today. It should be 100% repairable, 100% open bootloader & free firmware, 100% public tech docs/datasheets. Original manufacturer OS support is not insignificant, but i believe it's only significant because we have so little control/understanding of the hardware/software stack.
    - hnaccount_rng 21d ago
      You have trade offs though. Both with added effort during the development but also just physical limits with the amount of additional losses you have over clicked vs soldered connections
      - selfhoster1312 20d ago
        That's true. I can't say i'm 100% against soldering parts, that would be silly. What concerns me is that undocumented parts that are unavailable to buy as spare parts are soldered and have firmware that enforces pairing with a specific other part. It would be reasonable if all components on a motherboard had to be sold as spare parts by law (not just the entire board that costs the same as the entire device, that's malicious compliance) and all spec sheets were made available. That might just make the economy of a repair shop work again.
        hnaccount_rng 19d ago
        Sure, and in a zero marginal cost world that would be fine and dandy. In practice, it would mean significantly increased development and documentation costs for a low percentage increase in sold units. Selling spare parts was worth when things broke often and labor was cheap. We don’t live in that world anymore. That means a broken device will no linger get fixed. But on the plus side there are far fewer broken devices. I’m pretty sure that has the same problem shape as “there is no glory in prevention”
    - kalleboo 20d ago
      Totally agree that lawmakers need to crack down on locked-down hardware. The DMA crap that the EU passed even seems to go in the wrong direction, allowing Apple to audit the financials of anyone who makes an iOS app. I was mostly just reacting to your "barely matters" wording :)
  - a96 20d ago
    The thing about SSD failures is that in normal use, you can't wear one out. But in perfectly normal use, some of the units just die after N years (for very small number N in some cases). They don't warn. They don't show increased fault or wear counters. They just die and completely disappear from the bus and stop accepting any commands. There is no recovery and, I repeat, no warning. That's why you have backups and drives are easy to replace, though reinstall/restore can be tedious. Unless it's a soldered in one.
  - ryandrake 20d ago
    Every piece of Apple hardware I own has outlasted its software support by at least 2X. Or, as I'd rather put it: The software support has been prematurely cut off at best at 50% of devices' lifetimes.

by benoau 21d ago

selfhoster1312 21d ago

OS LTS support barely matters when planned obsolescence is baked in at the hardware level. Wearing parts (eg. SSD) are soldered on newer macs and there's intensive efforts to make sure even if you have the tools you can't repair it. Parts aren't available but if you get your hands on there's cryptographic parts pairing so it more or less can't be replaced: https://rossmanngroup.com/services/ssd-data-recovery/macbook/m-series-soldered-nand-recovery https://rossmanngroup.com/services/ssd-data-recovery/macbook... Overall, i wouldn't count on "many good years left".

kalleboo 21d ago
My MacBook Pro M1 is 5 years old now and the SSD wear level is at 4%. SSD wear is not a problem for normal users. Meanwhile Apple's standard OS support period is 7 years, that's a much more imminent limit. Not saying that I support non-user-replaceable SSDs, but if your goal is reducing e-waste, there are more impactful changes to make.
- selfhoster1312 21d ago
  Thanks, that's a fair data point. Although i'm sure it depends on actual user workloads. I'm not saying that I support closed-source firmware, locked bootloaders, or even that replacing SSDs is the one true path to sustainability. I believe it's a whole field and we shouldn't tolerate compromises on any level. It should be 100% illegal in any civilized country to sell the kind of lame hardware we have today. It should be 100% repairable, 100% open bootloader & free firmware, 100% public tech docs/datasheets. Original manufacturer OS support is not insignificant, but i believe it's only significant because we have so little control/understanding of the hardware/software stack.
  - hnaccount_rng 21d ago
    You have trade offs though. Both with added effort during the development but also just physical limits with the amount of additional losses you have over clicked vs soldered connections
    - selfhoster1312 20d ago
      That's true. I can't say i'm 100% against soldering parts, that would be silly. What concerns me is that undocumented parts that are unavailable to buy as spare parts are soldered and have firmware that enforces pairing with a specific other part. It would be reasonable if all components on a motherboard had to be sold as spare parts by law (not just the entire board that costs the same as the entire device, that's malicious compliance) and all spec sheets were made available. That might just make the economy of a repair shop work again.
      - hnaccount_rng 19d ago
        Sure, and in a zero marginal cost world that would be fine and dandy. In practice, it would mean significantly increased development and documentation costs for a low percentage increase in sold units. Selling spare parts was worth when things broke often and labor was cheap. We don’t live in that world anymore. That means a broken device will no linger get fixed. But on the plus side there are far fewer broken devices. I’m pretty sure that has the same problem shape as “there is no glory in prevention”
  - kalleboo 20d ago
    Totally agree that lawmakers need to crack down on locked-down hardware. The DMA crap that the EU passed even seems to go in the wrong direction, allowing Apple to audit the financials of anyone who makes an iOS app. I was mostly just reacting to your "barely matters" wording :)
- a96 20d ago
  The thing about SSD failures is that in normal use, you can't wear one out. But in perfectly normal use, some of the units just die after N years (for very small number N in some cases). They don't warn. They don't show increased fault or wear counters. They just die and completely disappear from the bus and stop accepting any commands. There is no recovery and, I repeat, no warning. That's why you have backups and drives are easy to replace, though reinstall/restore can be tedious. Unless it's a soldered in one.
- ryandrake 20d ago
  Every piece of Apple hardware I own has outlasted its software support by at least 2X. Or, as I'd rather put it: The software support has been prematurely cut off at best at 50% of devices' lifetimes.