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Thank you for posting. I'm being sincere. I think it is helpful to remind folk that these policies are not universally hated. Indeed a majority of voters voted

Thank you for posting. I'm being sincere. I think it is helpful to remind folk that these policies are not universally hated. Indeed a majority of voters voted specifically for them, and they were explicitly laid out. This is democracy in action. The majority (of those who care enough at all) get to rule over the minority (and the apathetic). Obviously not all actions will be universally loved, but no govt action can ever be universally loved.

deleted 21d ago
[deleted]
ActorNightly 21d ago
Its also helpful to remind folk about why someone would hold this position. The largest reason US got to where it was at least in the world economy stage was because of the visa program. It was the country everyone wanted to move to, because you can apply your skills, make money, start a business, with very little restriction comparatively, buy a house, and live your dream life. The more people wanna work, the more opportunities there are for work. Any time money changes hands, like in salary for work, this grows the economy, which further creates new jobs. If someone is for this type of restricted immigration, then you should have a clear cut position on why you think things being more expensive, less available, and overall lower economic activity (which affects things like one being able to get a mortgate or other loan, and so on) is generally better for the country. Because if they don't have those reasons, or have ones that are not rooted in reality than the position comes from xenophobia and racism in 99% of the cases.
- eudamoniac 21d ago
  Countries are not merely economic zones..! While I don't even agree with you (skilled immigrants are very different from unskilled), even if I did, anti immigration sentiment is largely about culture. I would prefer to live in my own culture than to be slightly richer in someone else's culture.
  - SmirkingRevenge 21d ago
    In the US, anti-immigrant sentiment is often the highest in regions with relatively few immigrants, far away from the border. The less that immigrants are part of peoples daily lives, the more people seem to fear for their "culture". Presuming to have any real agency over the evolution of human culture also seems misguided. Culture is like a river, in that "no man ever steps into the same one twice". It's constantly changing in unpredictable ways, from generation to generation or even within generations, with or without immigration. That goes for the cultures of immigrants also.
    - eudamoniac 20d ago
      The more people stand to lose, the more they fear losing it? shocking. (I don't even think that's true. Southern border states are a lot more concerned with illegal crossings than anywhere else. People who have to live near ethnic ghettos have a bigger problem with them than the coastal elites pushing for it. Etc) Pretending that importing millions of foreigners will not affect the culture whatsoever is just a dumb or disingenuous argument, sorry. We already see a microcosm of it with Indian tech workers, having constant scandals about only hiring other Indians of their caste, and with the southern border states having dual spanish language signs everywhere. UK has issues with Islamic tension today already. It is so fundamentally obvious that mass immigration from non-western cultures will produce non-westernized cultural changes, that otherwise wouldn't happen, that I have to just assume you are intentionally pretending not to understand that.
      - menuthrowaway 20d ago
        [flagged]
        eudamoniac 20d ago
        I'm not white.
      - SmirkingRevenge 20d ago
        > The more people stand to lose, the more they fear losing it? shocking. No - the less real exposure a person has to immigrants and their communities, the more dehumanizing anti-immigrant rhetoric has a chance to substitute for real experience. > Southern border states are a lot more concerned with illegal crossings than anywhere else Southern border states are also generally filled with a lot of people who actually know, from experience, that illegal border crossings and immigration are not the same thing. > the southern border states having dual spanish language signs everywhere The humanity! There will always be cultural diffusion along borders, no immigration policy is ever going to change that reality. The lives of people on either side are integrated in real tangible ways despite the lines on maps. And the reverse is also true, of course. Mexico is filled with English speakers and it's quite easy to get around there without speaking a lick of Spanish. It's a great place to visit. > Pretending that importing millions of foreigners will not affect the culture whatsoever is just a dumb or disingenuous argument The argument is more that any predictions about the future of culture or efforts to steer it one way or another are mostly futile, and likely more inspired by ones prejudices and irrational fears. Whatever it is that you are afraid of losing - you probably won't - or if you do, the immigrants probably weren't the ones who took it from you. (It's actually way more likely that some piece of technology, maybe built by some people on this very site, will be the thing that kills your culture)
thaumasiotes 21d ago
> This is democracy in action. The majority (of those who care enough at all) get to rule over the minority (and the apathetic). I've always been confused about how "democracy" is good, but "tyranny of the majority" is bad.
- FeepingCreature 21d ago
  Well, for one you're not supposed to use a majority vote to abolish democracy, or mess with unalienable rights. You can think of it as "democracy with precommitment".
  - ipsod 21d ago
    In other words, it's not democracy, it's a democratic republic. The democracy is constrained by the constitution.

deleted 21d ago

[deleted]

ActorNightly 21d ago

Its also helpful to remind folk about why someone would hold this position. The largest reason US got to where it was at least in the world economy stage was because of the visa program. It was the country everyone wanted to move to, because you can apply your skills, make money, start a business, with very little restriction comparatively, buy a house, and live your dream life. The more people wanna work, the more opportunities there are for work. Any time money changes hands, like in salary for work, this grows the economy, which further creates new jobs. If someone is for this type of restricted immigration, then you should have a clear cut position on why you think things being more expensive, less available, and overall lower economic activity (which affects things like one being able to get a mortgate or other loan, and so on) is generally better for the country. Because if they don't have those reasons, or have ones that are not rooted in reality than the position comes from xenophobia and racism in 99% of the cases.

eudamoniac 21d ago
Countries are not merely economic zones..! While I don't even agree with you (skilled immigrants are very different from unskilled), even if I did, anti immigration sentiment is largely about culture. I would prefer to live in my own culture than to be slightly richer in someone else's culture.
- SmirkingRevenge 21d ago
  In the US, anti-immigrant sentiment is often the highest in regions with relatively few immigrants, far away from the border. The less that immigrants are part of peoples daily lives, the more people seem to fear for their "culture". Presuming to have any real agency over the evolution of human culture also seems misguided. Culture is like a river, in that "no man ever steps into the same one twice". It's constantly changing in unpredictable ways, from generation to generation or even within generations, with or without immigration. That goes for the cultures of immigrants also.
  - eudamoniac 20d ago
    The more people stand to lose, the more they fear losing it? shocking. (I don't even think that's true. Southern border states are a lot more concerned with illegal crossings than anywhere else. People who have to live near ethnic ghettos have a bigger problem with them than the coastal elites pushing for it. Etc) Pretending that importing millions of foreigners will not affect the culture whatsoever is just a dumb or disingenuous argument, sorry. We already see a microcosm of it with Indian tech workers, having constant scandals about only hiring other Indians of their caste, and with the southern border states having dual spanish language signs everywhere. UK has issues with Islamic tension today already. It is so fundamentally obvious that mass immigration from non-western cultures will produce non-westernized cultural changes, that otherwise wouldn't happen, that I have to just assume you are intentionally pretending not to understand that.
    - menuthrowaway 20d ago
      [flagged]
      - eudamoniac 20d ago
        I'm not white.
    - SmirkingRevenge 20d ago
      > The more people stand to lose, the more they fear losing it? shocking. No - the less real exposure a person has to immigrants and their communities, the more dehumanizing anti-immigrant rhetoric has a chance to substitute for real experience. > Southern border states are a lot more concerned with illegal crossings than anywhere else Southern border states are also generally filled with a lot of people who actually know, from experience, that illegal border crossings and immigration are not the same thing. > the southern border states having dual spanish language signs everywhere The humanity! There will always be cultural diffusion along borders, no immigration policy is ever going to change that reality. The lives of people on either side are integrated in real tangible ways despite the lines on maps. And the reverse is also true, of course. Mexico is filled with English speakers and it's quite easy to get around there without speaking a lick of Spanish. It's a great place to visit. > Pretending that importing millions of foreigners will not affect the culture whatsoever is just a dumb or disingenuous argument The argument is more that any predictions about the future of culture or efforts to steer it one way or another are mostly futile, and likely more inspired by ones prejudices and irrational fears. Whatever it is that you are afraid of losing - you probably won't - or if you do, the immigrants probably weren't the ones who took it from you. (It's actually way more likely that some piece of technology, maybe built by some people on this very site, will be the thing that kills your culture)

thaumasiotes 21d ago

> This is democracy in action. The majority (of those who care enough at all) get to rule over the minority (and the apathetic). I've always been confused about how "democracy" is good, but "tyranny of the majority" is bad.

FeepingCreature 21d ago
Well, for one you're not supposed to use a majority vote to abolish democracy, or mess with unalienable rights. You can think of it as "democracy with precommitment".
- ipsod 21d ago
  In other words, it's not democracy, it's a democratic republic. The democracy is constrained by the constitution.