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You're arguing for diffusion of responsibility, and we've seen it leading to outcomes that screw the whole society. Engineers, as everyone involved, should def

You're arguing for diffusion of responsibility, and we've seen it leading to outcomes that screw the whole society. Engineers, as everyone involved, should definitely assess whether what they're doing is legal or even ethical. Not everyone has a choice, or the luxury to stand for their principles, but that's a matter of means, there needs to be a will in the first place.

ryandrake 21d ago
Absolutely. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, that engineers should be compliant, neutral "implementers" who should just turn off their conscience and implement whatever pops up on their JIRA list without any kind of assessment or objections on ethical or legal grounds. That's not what people in a serious profession do. It's also so weird to hear this idea from engineers themselves! Like, are you really advocating to remove your own agency over your work??
- bonoboTP 21d ago
  The role of legal oversight is elsewhere. Engineers are not equipped with the knowledge. Obvious ethical issues are are different, like crimes against humanity level. Other than that, it's none of their business. There are institutions for that.
  - ryandrake 20d ago
    OK, maybe I'll concede the point on legal oversight. But I'd at least expect an engineer to be familiar enough with where the law intersects their work to push back on things obviously illegal. Ethical issues are more likely to be encountered. And they don't even have to be "crimes against humanity" level. I'd expect a professional engineer to strongly push back on and/or refuse things like "write code to cheat a benchmark and make our product look better than it is" and "implement a dark pattern to trick the user into giving us personal information" and "increase our signup funnel by harvesting our users' address books and spamming our app to their contacts."
    - bonoboTP 20d ago
      In case of conflict of conscience/taste of that sort, resignation is the proper action and finding a job that better aligns with one's values. If you suspect legal violations, you can also file a police report.
      - makeitdouble 20d ago
        > resignation is the proper action Why not act according to your conscience and get fired if your employer really feels like it ? Otherwise, in many circumstances a simple "is this legal?" question in a chat or chain of emails that I'll be there in case of discovery will have tremendous effects on whether some dubious thing is done willy nilly.

ryandrake 21d ago

Absolutely. I'm not sure where this idea comes from, that engineers should be compliant, neutral "implementers" who should just turn off their conscience and implement whatever pops up on their JIRA list without any kind of assessment or objections on ethical or legal grounds. That's not what people in a serious profession do. It's also so weird to hear this idea from engineers themselves! Like, are you really advocating to remove your own agency over your work??

bonoboTP 21d ago
The role of legal oversight is elsewhere. Engineers are not equipped with the knowledge. Obvious ethical issues are are different, like crimes against humanity level. Other than that, it's none of their business. There are institutions for that.
- ryandrake 20d ago
  OK, maybe I'll concede the point on legal oversight. But I'd at least expect an engineer to be familiar enough with where the law intersects their work to push back on things obviously illegal. Ethical issues are more likely to be encountered. And they don't even have to be "crimes against humanity" level. I'd expect a professional engineer to strongly push back on and/or refuse things like "write code to cheat a benchmark and make our product look better than it is" and "implement a dark pattern to trick the user into giving us personal information" and "increase our signup funnel by harvesting our users' address books and spamming our app to their contacts."
  - bonoboTP 20d ago
    In case of conflict of conscience/taste of that sort, resignation is the proper action and finding a job that better aligns with one's values. If you suspect legal violations, you can also file a police report.
    - makeitdouble 20d ago
      > resignation is the proper action Why not act according to your conscience and get fired if your employer really feels like it ? Otherwise, in many circumstances a simple "is this legal?" question in a chat or chain of emails that I'll be there in case of discovery will have tremendous effects on whether some dubious thing is done willy nilly.