7 ms·

Immigrants choose to move here because it provides more opportunity. What you call "exploitation" is a massive improvement for many.

toomuchtodo 21d ago
Humans make suboptimal choices often, the evidence is clear (out of emotion vs logic and critical thinking, out of lack of information, etc). I have no issues with policy that keeps them out, for their own safety, and I hope that the economic situation continues to improve outside of the US globally to make the decision trivial to not attempt to immigrate. And so, I do not take issue with this administration destroying pipelines supporting immigration. They do it out of racism, I support it out of compassion and empathy. Do not come, it is not safe. Sometimes you will be lucky, "opportunity," but luck is not a strategy, nor does the evidence show immigrants are lucky at scale (imho). The rest of the world will only continue to improve as the US declines. Fertility rates are rapidly declining globally (71% of the global population lives in countries below replacement rate, as of this comment), which will lead to less economic migration over time. I accept we will disagree on this topic, from different mental models and lived experiences. If one is a capitalist or a neoliberal, I agree no shared ground is to be found. I have too much empathy to be either. Fundamentally, this is vulnerability management applied to economic migration and time window exposure to the experience of living in the US as a human, and alternatives to that path. https://cmsny.org/importance-of-immigrant-labor-to-us-economy/ https://cmsny.org/importance-of-immigrant-labor-to-us-econom... https://workrisenetwork.org/feature/immigrants-low-wage-workforce https://workrisenetwork.org/feature/immigrants-low-wage-work... > Immigrants frequently step into physically demanding, labor-intensive, or low-wage essential jobs that face persistent shortages of native-born workers. > Low-wage immigrant workers are an essential part of the US economy. Most of these workers have been in the US for decades and make up a large share of the workforce in key occupations. Abrupt changes to immigration policy and the escalation of enforcement strategies have affected workers, their families, employers, and communities, creating a climate of fear for people across the country. Despite these rising threats and violations of rights, immigrants continue to show up for work and contribute. There is no labor shortage, only a shortage of workers willing to work at poverty or below wages. If the job is essential, pay a living wage. If the job is dangerous, reduce the danger and supplement with automation. But for this to occur, labor supply must be constrained, which we are in the process of doing. Stealing the turn of phrase, "Starve the beast." We should not be thankful for these workers, we should be ashamed we import them and treat them as a permanent underclass. But I don't see much shame, so you have to beat on the system harder until it reaches failure. The US generates roughly $5T/year in profits, most of which goes to the top 10%. It can afford a bit more humanity, even if forced to do so. Terra Incognita: The Economics of a Shrinking World [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49352811 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49352811 - August 2026 The demographic future of humanity: facts and consequences [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44866621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44866621 - August 2025 (400 comments) The Great Demographic Reversal: Ageing Societies, Waning Inequality, and an Inflation Revival - https://www.suerf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/f_fa99ccdbea597263a88f27075bd6eb49_17385_suerf.pdf https://www.suerf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/f_fa99ccdbe... - SUERF Policy Note, Issue No 197, October 2020 (consider this in concert with US unemployment and underemployment, showing we have a surplus of domestic US citizen labor today) Nearly 25% of U.S. workers are "functionally unemployed," economic analysis finds - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/functional-unemployment-us-labor-market-analysis/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/functional-unemployment-us-labo... - August 24th, 2026 CBS News: What is "functional unemployment" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y2gKIGFTns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y2gKIGFTns - August 25th, 2026 Most Americans don't earn enough to afford basic costs of living, analysis finds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44119317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44119317 - May 2025 (Report: https://www.lisep.org/mql https://www.lisep.org/mql)
- ajmurmann 21d ago
  There is nothing wrong with allowing a equilibrium price to be established across borders. Customers get cheaper prices and workers better pay and better QoL than in their home country. It's a win-win. Making life better elsewhere often happens through remittance or people who acquired skills elsewhere moving back. However, often prospering isn't happening due to systemic issues that an individual cannot change. If you don't believe that their life is in fact better you can try to convince them. But if you somehow think you are in a position where you should be making life choices for others we have fundamentally different values. Capitalism, Ho!
  - toomuchtodo 21d ago
    I don't need to convince anyone, anti-immigrant political sentiment just needs to remain high in the US for this to happen. Is this likely to happen? I think so, and this admin has at least another two and a half years in office while this impairs businesses requiring this exploited labor far into the future. Businesses will go without this labor, or hire workers in the US today, which will be somewhat sticky for some time. Good luck to the capitalists and attempting to pull these trajectories back towards what they want, it'll take years, if not longer. https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/26/us/trump-tps-labor-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/26/us/trump-tps-labor-shorta... | https://archive.today/cVIP1 https://archive.today/cVIP1 https://cis.org/Academic-Articles/Employment-Effects-Immigration-Enforcement-Initial-Assessment https://cis.org/Academic-Articles/Employment-Effects-Immigra... > If you don't believe that their life is in fact better you can try to convince them. But if you somehow think you are in a position where you should be making life choices for others we have fundamentally different values. US citizens get a vote, potential immigrants or those not legally in the US do not. I completely understand immigrants might feel differently on this. Everyone is entitled to their feelings, but not everyone gets a vote. Foreign born US residents make up ~15% of the US population (somewhat stale and likely does not account for recent departures, both voluntary and not). If someone feels entitled to access to the US in some capacity, economically or otherwise, that's unfortunate and not congruent with current policy (again, which will last at least another two and a half years). We have different values, that's all, with all due respect, compassion, and sympathy towards another human. https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R48940 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R48940 https://cis.org/Report/ForeignBorn-Number-and-Share-US-Population-AllTime-Highs-January-2025 https://cis.org/Report/ForeignBorn-Number-and-Share-US-Popul...

toomuchtodo 21d ago

Humans make suboptimal choices often, the evidence is clear (out of emotion vs logic and critical thinking, out of lack of information, etc). I have no issues with policy that keeps them out, for their own safety, and I hope that the economic situation continues to improve outside of the US globally to make the decision trivial to not attempt to immigrate. And so, I do not take issue with this administration destroying pipelines supporting immigration. They do it out of racism, I support it out of compassion and empathy. Do not come, it is not safe. Sometimes you will be lucky, "opportunity," but luck is not a strategy, nor does the evidence show immigrants are lucky at scale (imho). The rest of the world will only continue to improve as the US declines. Fertility rates are rapidly declining globally (71% of the global population lives in countries below replacement rate, as of this comment), which will lead to less economic migration over time. I accept we will disagree on this topic, from different mental models and lived experiences. If one is a capitalist or a neoliberal, I agree no shared ground is to be found. I have too much empathy to be either. Fundamentally, this is vulnerability management applied to economic migration and time window exposure to the experience of living in the US as a human, and alternatives to that path. https://cmsny.org/importance-of-immigrant-labor-to-us-economy/ https://cmsny.org/importance-of-immigrant-labor-to-us-econom... https://workrisenetwork.org/feature/immigrants-low-wage-workforce https://workrisenetwork.org/feature/immigrants-low-wage-work... > Immigrants frequently step into physically demanding, labor-intensive, or low-wage essential jobs that face persistent shortages of native-born workers. > Low-wage immigrant workers are an essential part of the US economy. Most of these workers have been in the US for decades and make up a large share of the workforce in key occupations. Abrupt changes to immigration policy and the escalation of enforcement strategies have affected workers, their families, employers, and communities, creating a climate of fear for people across the country. Despite these rising threats and violations of rights, immigrants continue to show up for work and contribute. There is no labor shortage, only a shortage of workers willing to work at poverty or below wages. If the job is essential, pay a living wage. If the job is dangerous, reduce the danger and supplement with automation. But for this to occur, labor supply must be constrained, which we are in the process of doing. Stealing the turn of phrase, "Starve the beast." We should not be thankful for these workers, we should be ashamed we import them and treat them as a permanent underclass. But I don't see much shame, so you have to beat on the system harder until it reaches failure. The US generates roughly $5T/year in profits, most of which goes to the top 10%. It can afford a bit more humanity, even if forced to do so. Terra Incognita: The Economics of a Shrinking World [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49352811 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49352811 - August 2026 The demographic future of humanity: facts and consequences [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44866621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44866621 - August 2025 (400 comments) The Great Demographic Reversal: Ageing Societies, Waning Inequality, and an Inflation Revival - https://www.suerf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/f_fa99ccdbea597263a88f27075bd6eb49_17385_suerf.pdf https://www.suerf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/f_fa99ccdbe... - SUERF Policy Note, Issue No 197, October 2020 (consider this in concert with US unemployment and underemployment, showing we have a surplus of domestic US citizen labor today) Nearly 25% of U.S. workers are "functionally unemployed," economic analysis finds - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/functional-unemployment-us-labor-market-analysis/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/functional-unemployment-us-labo... - August 24th, 2026 CBS News: What is "functional unemployment" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y2gKIGFTns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y2gKIGFTns - August 25th, 2026 Most Americans don't earn enough to afford basic costs of living, analysis finds - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44119317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44119317 - May 2025 (Report: https://www.lisep.org/mql https://www.lisep.org/mql)

ajmurmann 21d ago
There is nothing wrong with allowing a equilibrium price to be established across borders. Customers get cheaper prices and workers better pay and better QoL than in their home country. It's a win-win. Making life better elsewhere often happens through remittance or people who acquired skills elsewhere moving back. However, often prospering isn't happening due to systemic issues that an individual cannot change. If you don't believe that their life is in fact better you can try to convince them. But if you somehow think you are in a position where you should be making life choices for others we have fundamentally different values. Capitalism, Ho!
- toomuchtodo 21d ago
  I don't need to convince anyone, anti-immigrant political sentiment just needs to remain high in the US for this to happen. Is this likely to happen? I think so, and this admin has at least another two and a half years in office while this impairs businesses requiring this exploited labor far into the future. Businesses will go without this labor, or hire workers in the US today, which will be somewhat sticky for some time. Good luck to the capitalists and attempting to pull these trajectories back towards what they want, it'll take years, if not longer. https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/26/us/trump-tps-labor-shortage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/26/us/trump-tps-labor-shorta... | https://archive.today/cVIP1 https://archive.today/cVIP1 https://cis.org/Academic-Articles/Employment-Effects-Immigration-Enforcement-Initial-Assessment https://cis.org/Academic-Articles/Employment-Effects-Immigra... > If you don't believe that their life is in fact better you can try to convince them. But if you somehow think you are in a position where you should be making life choices for others we have fundamentally different values. US citizens get a vote, potential immigrants or those not legally in the US do not. I completely understand immigrants might feel differently on this. Everyone is entitled to their feelings, but not everyone gets a vote. Foreign born US residents make up ~15% of the US population (somewhat stale and likely does not account for recent departures, both voluntary and not). If someone feels entitled to access to the US in some capacity, economically or otherwise, that's unfortunate and not congruent with current policy (again, which will last at least another two and a half years). We have different values, that's all, with all due respect, compassion, and sympathy towards another human. https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R48940 https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R48940 https://cis.org/Report/ForeignBorn-Number-and-Share-US-Population-AllTime-Highs-January-2025 https://cis.org/Report/ForeignBorn-Number-and-Share-US-Popul...