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> we already have funds and productivity to feed and shelter everyone. Where ? who ?

CuriouslyC 22d ago
You can build livable domiciles for a few grand in bulk, recycle waste via composting to reduce infrastructure needs, shared batteries and solar, etc. There are plenty of people on youtube demonstrating the permie off grid lifestyle. Grains are cheap and we have a wild boar and deer problem in a lot of the country so food wouldn't be too expensive either.
- tartuffe78 22d ago
  Most people don't want to live like that. They want AC, central plumbing, trendy food, and cheap clothing.
  - makapuf 22d ago
    And most people don't live in this country.
  - tttrr 22d ago
    He’s a delusional idiot Let’s ask him straight - would he be ok living like that? Lmfao Lots of looney tunes comments on this thread
    - CuriouslyC 22d ago
      For the record, I'm into permaculture/regenerative agriculture and enjoy the lifestyle, all I need is shared satellite internet. If my choice was between working 60 hours a week at 3 jobs to barely keep my head above water, or live in an agricultural commune, I would take the commune every time.
  - otikik 20d ago
    Depends on what the other choice is. If living on the streets without even being able to afford a pair of shoes, people will take that.
- worthless-trash 21d ago
  It doesn't matter if its cheap, the economy requires monetary exchange. What work are people doing that would balance out the work to build composting systems, infrastructure needs, batteries, solar, wheat, 'wild boar' (protip, there isnt enough without farming, I hunt). All of these things you've stated require a long chain of manufacturing, none of which are free. The systems themselves are incredibly complex and require hard human work. Can you explain to me how any of this is possible under the constraints you've made. I can only see regression not an evolution or an improvement.
  - CuriouslyC 21d ago
    There's a productive capacity of the economy, and there's allocation. Currently we allocate a large portion of the economy to dog bowls shaped like toilets that flush when your dog eats out of it, billy bass singing wall tchotchkies, etc. We need a functional economy to produce a lot of the things you mention, but we can absolutely afford to shift resources away from plastic capitalist garbage. I've known enough permies that have made it work to know that it's possible to have an off grid lifestyle that's quite decent if you value time and relaxation over material abundance. You talk about regression, but what about the regression of people working 3 jobs, 60 hours a week in shit jobs and barely clearing every month? Those same people could have a hay bale house, composting toilet, a permaculture garden and work 15 hours a week to pay for internet/food you can't grow/farming inputs (limited in permaculture setups).
    - worthless-trash 20d ago
      Up front, thank you for the civil discussion. I'm not doubting that it can be done on the small scale. I just dont think it can be done on any large scale. You kinda skipped over what I stated. There isnt a way to distribution of shelter, food and storage on the scale required with the collapsing tech tree that will happen when UBI is across the board. The same factory that creates the plastic extrusions for the dog bowl are the ones that make it for the compost toilet. (Yes, Ive used a real outback dunny), even that has a tech tree that is outside of the basic requirements you've understood. This doesn't go into the issues that will happen when the tech and delivery tree of things as simple as insulin happen. Every parent I know is going to get back into those three jobs to save their kid, its not even a question. I have serious concern that the "UBI will work" attitude will be successful, it sounds great short term and if we as a society adopt it, and it fails (it will) we've fucked humanity for the rest of time. Unless every citizen in every country adopts it, those who maintain their military machine will dominate the rest of the planet so easily it would be finished up in a year. This passive position is a luxury that certain western countries have.
m4ck_ 22d ago
The resources exist, it's just a matter of allocating them properly. We have lumber and concrete to build houses. We have fertilizer and land and trucks to grow and ship food. And apparently all of this will be immensely cheaper (practically free) within a decade thanks to robotics and AI (according to the trillionaire half this place worships.) With that said I doubt that reallocation will happen in any meaningful way, and as the elites eliminate more people from the economy we'll descend further into violence and chaos. If the parasite class was generous, they wouldn't be parasites.
- worthless-trash 21d ago
  I keep hearing these, but i find it so hard to connect reality to what you're saying. All of your ideas sound great, I doubt they work. I fear you misunderstand the complexity tech tree required to deliver this utopia you desire. There is too much work required that won't be being done, "with ai" and "with robotics" , of which they have thier own tech and resource trees of dependencies. If people are not paying for the resources (and how will they, since on ubi there is no requirement to deliver value) robots wont be made, and you're back to caveman development. I'm happy to debate this, but I just feel the whole arguement of -it will just happen- is incredible wishful thinking.

You can build livable domiciles for a few grand in bulk, recycle waste via composting to reduce infrastructure needs, shared batteries and solar, etc. There are plenty of people on youtube demonstrating the permie off grid lifestyle. Grains are cheap and we have a wild boar and deer problem in a lot of the country so food wouldn't be too expensive either.

tartuffe78 22d ago
Most people don't want to live like that. They want AC, central plumbing, trendy food, and cheap clothing.
- makapuf 22d ago
  And most people don't live in this country.
- tttrr 22d ago
  He’s a delusional idiot Let’s ask him straight - would he be ok living like that? Lmfao Lots of looney tunes comments on this thread
  - CuriouslyC 22d ago
    For the record, I'm into permaculture/regenerative agriculture and enjoy the lifestyle, all I need is shared satellite internet. If my choice was between working 60 hours a week at 3 jobs to barely keep my head above water, or live in an agricultural commune, I would take the commune every time.
- otikik 20d ago
  Depends on what the other choice is. If living on the streets without even being able to afford a pair of shoes, people will take that.
worthless-trash 21d ago
It doesn't matter if its cheap, the economy requires monetary exchange. What work are people doing that would balance out the work to build composting systems, infrastructure needs, batteries, solar, wheat, 'wild boar' (protip, there isnt enough without farming, I hunt). All of these things you've stated require a long chain of manufacturing, none of which are free. The systems themselves are incredibly complex and require hard human work. Can you explain to me how any of this is possible under the constraints you've made. I can only see regression not an evolution or an improvement.
- CuriouslyC 21d ago
  There's a productive capacity of the economy, and there's allocation. Currently we allocate a large portion of the economy to dog bowls shaped like toilets that flush when your dog eats out of it, billy bass singing wall tchotchkies, etc. We need a functional economy to produce a lot of the things you mention, but we can absolutely afford to shift resources away from plastic capitalist garbage. I've known enough permies that have made it work to know that it's possible to have an off grid lifestyle that's quite decent if you value time and relaxation over material abundance. You talk about regression, but what about the regression of people working 3 jobs, 60 hours a week in shit jobs and barely clearing every month? Those same people could have a hay bale house, composting toilet, a permaculture garden and work 15 hours a week to pay for internet/food you can't grow/farming inputs (limited in permaculture setups).
  - worthless-trash 20d ago
    Up front, thank you for the civil discussion. I'm not doubting that it can be done on the small scale. I just dont think it can be done on any large scale. You kinda skipped over what I stated. There isnt a way to distribution of shelter, food and storage on the scale required with the collapsing tech tree that will happen when UBI is across the board. The same factory that creates the plastic extrusions for the dog bowl are the ones that make it for the compost toilet. (Yes, Ive used a real outback dunny), even that has a tech tree that is outside of the basic requirements you've understood. This doesn't go into the issues that will happen when the tech and delivery tree of things as simple as insulin happen. Every parent I know is going to get back into those three jobs to save their kid, its not even a question. I have serious concern that the "UBI will work" attitude will be successful, it sounds great short term and if we as a society adopt it, and it fails (it will) we've fucked humanity for the rest of time. Unless every citizen in every country adopts it, those who maintain their military machine will dominate the rest of the planet so easily it would be finished up in a year. This passive position is a luxury that certain western countries have.

m4ck_ 22d ago

The resources exist, it's just a matter of allocating them properly. We have lumber and concrete to build houses. We have fertilizer and land and trucks to grow and ship food. And apparently all of this will be immensely cheaper (practically free) within a decade thanks to robotics and AI (according to the trillionaire half this place worships.) With that said I doubt that reallocation will happen in any meaningful way, and as the elites eliminate more people from the economy we'll descend further into violence and chaos. If the parasite class was generous, they wouldn't be parasites.

worthless-trash 21d ago
I keep hearing these, but i find it so hard to connect reality to what you're saying. All of your ideas sound great, I doubt they work. I fear you misunderstand the complexity tech tree required to deliver this utopia you desire. There is too much work required that won't be being done, "with ai" and "with robotics" , of which they have thier own tech and resource trees of dependencies. If people are not paying for the resources (and how will they, since on ubi there is no requirement to deliver value) robots wont be made, and you're back to caveman development. I'm happy to debate this, but I just feel the whole arguement of -it will just happen- is incredible wishful thinking.