6 ms·

Yep, vote with your wallets. It’s about time Apple learned that excellent hardware alone would not make up for what macOS lacks and where it fails for developme

by prmph 22d ago

Yep, vote with your wallets. It’s about time Apple learned that excellent hardware alone would not make up for what macOS lacks and where it fails for development.

ydna404 22d ago
We just need a better alternative lol
danielktdoranie 22d ago
[flagged]
cortesoft 22d ago
What would you want Apple to do to improve the developer experience?
- prmph 22d ago
  Proper macOS virtualization, for example. Also, I do not want to have to upgrade my machine and OS every few years just to keep up with apps that stop working or installing, not because the hardware is no longer capable, but due to ridiculous obsolescence policies. Heck, I can not run the latest version of a lot of software (including basic developer tools) on one of my MacBooks, simply because it is running Monterey. A proper package manager CLI is also sorely needed. Delegating that to Homebrew and MacPorts doesn't cut it.
  - holoduke 22d ago
    Even my MacBook Intel from 2015 is still receiving updates. It's slow, but everything works.
    - doc_ick 22d ago
      Same here, it can’t run models but it’s got all the applications I run with no problems. Sounds more like a user error or an app preference error.
      - prmph 22d ago
        Hmm, let's see: I tried to install stuff with Homebrew; it kept warning me that they don't support such an old macOS. Almost everything I wanted to install with it, it tried to do a source build, because the binaries did not exist for it. At one point it was building LLVM to install a dependency, which ran for almost one whole day, I kid you not, and still failed Also, the latest version of Podman (both CLI and desktop) does not run properly on Monterey. Even if you manage to install those, you cannot create a Podman VM, because it relies on some newer Apple virtualization tech instead of QEmu, and that is not supported on Monterey. MS Office, Adobe Lightroom, Photoshop, etc... The latest versions of these do not run on Monterey. These are just a few of the examples. On Big Sur, things were even worse. The latest versions of VSCode, VSCodium, Brave browser, and many things you might want install with Homebrew, etc. do not run on it. You will have to hunt for specifc old versions to install.
        cortesoft 22d ago
        Those are all third party services that decided to stop shipping Intel releases for their Mac software. That isn’t Apple’s fault.
        doc_ick 22d ago
        I mean that is unfortunate, but those are app specific problems not problems necessarily with Mac. Exhausted example but if pull up a raspberry pi 2 I’m not going to expect it to run the latest version of rust. If the app devs drop support for a system that sucks, but it’s the devs decisions. One system I run I’ve had to air gap since it is out of date, but I’m not blaming apps. Though I gripe with the openjdk decision to not support Apple intel, it’s what it is. Edit: im sure linux distros have problems as well, just like windows does with this. (Why can’t windows 95 run oblivion with 20 mods on it?)
        mgaunard 22d ago
        In general Rosetta2 is much better than QEmu, but you do need macOS 26 to get even basic things like AVX2. In general, the model on Mac is that you need to run latest. It's not like you're gonna use it for a production server, they're meant to be personal devices, so upgrading them is not a major issue.
    - georgel 22d ago
      MacOS 27 drops Intel support, but 10 years of updates is a long run. The 2015 MBPs were so good.
  - xp84 22d ago
    Honestly, Homebrew is so healthy[1], and modern Apple is so corrupted by greed, that I'm sure I don't want Apple to try to Sherlock it. Can you imagine? To get a package published, you'd need the developer subscription, and Apple would block any package that threatened any of their revenue streams. Not to mention that they'd probably want to also run the scan the MAS does to ensure you're not using any "private APIs." No thanks, Apple has no role to play here. [1] (Personally, macports hasn't been my jam in decades)
- NamlchakKhandro 22d ago
  Make installing Linux on it easy
  - doc_ick 22d ago
    Just get a dell laptop with Ubuntu on it, that’s easier
    - cortesoft 22d ago
      The entire point of this comment chain is that Apple makes great hardware but they don’t like the OS. Buying a Dell laptop doesn’t get you the 256 GB GPU.
      - doc_ick 21d ago
        I’m sure there’s a custom laptop out there that can get 256gb cpu that can run Linux
        cortesoft 21d ago
        No there isn't, and certainly not for the Apple price point
        doc_ick 21d ago
        Well if price is your problem, sounds like you’ll just have to get along with macOS, save up, or use a vm. Just like if you ever want to work at a job (majority), you have to use windows (my least favorite of os’s by far). *or hacintosh but I haven’t kept up with that
- spudlyo 22d ago
  Improve the speed of APFS. Like try forking off a job to create a bunch of git worktrees in on APFS vs EXT4 -- it's significantly slower. Deleting a ton of files, cloning repos, hardlink performance, etc; APFS performance is poor compared to just about any other Linux filesystem.
  - rahkiin 22d ago
    The grass is always greener for some problem somewhere. Try doing what you write on a (corporate) Windows machine with NTFS and file filters
thiht 22d ago
macOS is fine, you guys are just overreacting… Is it perfect? No. Is it usable? Clearly yes.
- switchbak 22d ago
  Maybe they have standards and preferences. "fine" and "overreacting" seem like your very subjective value judgements.
  - thiht 21d ago
    Ok, so they can migrate to an OS that fits their standards and preferences, no need to make it a militant stance with "vote with your wallet" or whatever. You like Linux or Windows better, go use it, Apple won't be mad
- mgaunard 22d ago
  My M5 pro macbook panics one to two times a week. I narrowed it down to an issue with a thunderbolt-linked ethernet adapter. I reported it about ten times, Apple never replied or addressed it. After a while I decided to take things into my own hands, and to write my own driver. Just installing a VM you can load a driver in for development and testing was a two-week effort. Everything locked down. Their VM infrastructure is so bad you can't even properly emulate or route the device, so in the end the only way to test it properly was to install the driver in the real thing, which is extremely disturbing to productivity, as the device you're working on constantly crashes. The whole platform is developer-hostile, which is essentially the same thing as user-hostile as far as I'm concerned. Meanwhile, on Linux, zero issues, and writing or testing a driver is child's play. It's literally built for tinkerers.
  - borisgolovnev 21d ago
    FWIW, had similar issues on M2 Max MacBook Pro and they did fix it eventually, in macOS 26. It only took 2-3 years. btw if it happens often, check your cable, try a different one

by prmph 22d ago

Yep, vote with your wallets. It’s about time Apple learned that excellent hardware alone would not make up for what macOS lacks and where it fails for development.

ydna404 22d ago

We just need a better alternative lol

danielktdoranie 22d ago

[flagged]

cortesoft 22d ago

What would you want Apple to do to improve the developer experience?

prmph 22d ago
Proper macOS virtualization, for example. Also, I do not want to have to upgrade my machine and OS every few years just to keep up with apps that stop working or installing, not because the hardware is no longer capable, but due to ridiculous obsolescence policies. Heck, I can not run the latest version of a lot of software (including basic developer tools) on one of my MacBooks, simply because it is running Monterey. A proper package manager CLI is also sorely needed. Delegating that to Homebrew and MacPorts doesn't cut it.
- holoduke 22d ago
  Even my MacBook Intel from 2015 is still receiving updates. It's slow, but everything works.
  - doc_ick 22d ago
    Same here, it can’t run models but it’s got all the applications I run with no problems. Sounds more like a user error or an app preference error.
    - prmph 22d ago
      Hmm, let's see: I tried to install stuff with Homebrew; it kept warning me that they don't support such an old macOS. Almost everything I wanted to install with it, it tried to do a source build, because the binaries did not exist for it. At one point it was building LLVM to install a dependency, which ran for almost one whole day, I kid you not, and still failed Also, the latest version of Podman (both CLI and desktop) does not run properly on Monterey. Even if you manage to install those, you cannot create a Podman VM, because it relies on some newer Apple virtualization tech instead of QEmu, and that is not supported on Monterey. MS Office, Adobe Lightroom, Photoshop, etc... The latest versions of these do not run on Monterey. These are just a few of the examples. On Big Sur, things were even worse. The latest versions of VSCode, VSCodium, Brave browser, and many things you might want install with Homebrew, etc. do not run on it. You will have to hunt for specifc old versions to install.
      - cortesoft 22d ago
        Those are all third party services that decided to stop shipping Intel releases for their Mac software. That isn’t Apple’s fault.
      - doc_ick 22d ago
        I mean that is unfortunate, but those are app specific problems not problems necessarily with Mac. Exhausted example but if pull up a raspberry pi 2 I’m not going to expect it to run the latest version of rust. If the app devs drop support for a system that sucks, but it’s the devs decisions. One system I run I’ve had to air gap since it is out of date, but I’m not blaming apps. Though I gripe with the openjdk decision to not support Apple intel, it’s what it is. Edit: im sure linux distros have problems as well, just like windows does with this. (Why can’t windows 95 run oblivion with 20 mods on it?)
      - mgaunard 22d ago
        In general Rosetta2 is much better than QEmu, but you do need macOS 26 to get even basic things like AVX2. In general, the model on Mac is that you need to run latest. It's not like you're gonna use it for a production server, they're meant to be personal devices, so upgrading them is not a major issue.
  - georgel 22d ago
    MacOS 27 drops Intel support, but 10 years of updates is a long run. The 2015 MBPs were so good.
- xp84 22d ago
  Honestly, Homebrew is so healthy[1], and modern Apple is so corrupted by greed, that I'm sure I don't want Apple to try to Sherlock it. Can you imagine? To get a package published, you'd need the developer subscription, and Apple would block any package that threatened any of their revenue streams. Not to mention that they'd probably want to also run the scan the MAS does to ensure you're not using any "private APIs." No thanks, Apple has no role to play here. [1] (Personally, macports hasn't been my jam in decades)
NamlchakKhandro 22d ago
Make installing Linux on it easy
- doc_ick 22d ago
  Just get a dell laptop with Ubuntu on it, that’s easier
  - cortesoft 22d ago
    The entire point of this comment chain is that Apple makes great hardware but they don’t like the OS. Buying a Dell laptop doesn’t get you the 256 GB GPU.
    - doc_ick 21d ago
      I’m sure there’s a custom laptop out there that can get 256gb cpu that can run Linux
      - cortesoft 21d ago
        No there isn't, and certainly not for the Apple price point
        doc_ick 21d ago
        Well if price is your problem, sounds like you’ll just have to get along with macOS, save up, or use a vm. Just like if you ever want to work at a job (majority), you have to use windows (my least favorite of os’s by far). *or hacintosh but I haven’t kept up with that
spudlyo 22d ago
Improve the speed of APFS. Like try forking off a job to create a bunch of git worktrees in on APFS vs EXT4 -- it's significantly slower. Deleting a ton of files, cloning repos, hardlink performance, etc; APFS performance is poor compared to just about any other Linux filesystem.
- rahkiin 22d ago
  The grass is always greener for some problem somewhere. Try doing what you write on a (corporate) Windows machine with NTFS and file filters

thiht 22d ago

macOS is fine, you guys are just overreacting… Is it perfect? No. Is it usable? Clearly yes.

switchbak 22d ago
Maybe they have standards and preferences. "fine" and "overreacting" seem like your very subjective value judgements.
- thiht 21d ago
  Ok, so they can migrate to an OS that fits their standards and preferences, no need to make it a militant stance with "vote with your wallet" or whatever. You like Linux or Windows better, go use it, Apple won't be mad
mgaunard 22d ago
My M5 pro macbook panics one to two times a week. I narrowed it down to an issue with a thunderbolt-linked ethernet adapter. I reported it about ten times, Apple never replied or addressed it. After a while I decided to take things into my own hands, and to write my own driver. Just installing a VM you can load a driver in for development and testing was a two-week effort. Everything locked down. Their VM infrastructure is so bad you can't even properly emulate or route the device, so in the end the only way to test it properly was to install the driver in the real thing, which is extremely disturbing to productivity, as the device you're working on constantly crashes. The whole platform is developer-hostile, which is essentially the same thing as user-hostile as far as I'm concerned. Meanwhile, on Linux, zero issues, and writing or testing a driver is child's play. It's literally built for tinkerers.
- borisgolovnev 21d ago
  FWIW, had similar issues on M2 Max MacBook Pro and they did fix it eventually, in macOS 26. It only took 2-3 years. btw if it happens often, check your cable, try a different one