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china's historical total emissions will also surpass the US's pretty soon, on account of their nearly 3x as large population combined with their per capita emis

china's historical total emissions will also surpass the US's pretty soon, on account of their nearly 3x as large population combined with their per capita emissions being nearly as high. and as mentioned, theirs is likely set to grow way faster. I agree extrapolating isn't always the best way to assign historical blame (for whatever that might mean), I do think it makes sense to use when thinking about what policies people ought to take now, to reduce damage as much as possible I also don't agree that just because someone else became rich through some negative process (crime, perhaps), that everyone has a right to the same. This sort of thinking is the way the world burns

sokoloff 22d ago
I believe that every person has just as much right to emit pollution in 2027 as every other person in 2027. What that person emitted in 2025 has no bearing on their 2027 “allowance”. We can certainly discuss how much is an appropriate, sustainable, or defensible per-person amount, but I’m only interested in the 2027 amounts, not the increase in their amount versus a prior period, nor in allowing past large emitters to continue at higher rates than past low-emitters. (I think we strongly agree on your last paragraph’s point. That was the point of my GP post, but maybe it didn’t land somehow.)
- spwa4 22d ago
  > I believe that every person has just as much right to emit pollution in 2027 as every other person in 2027. Because every person has their own planet?
  - sokoloff 22d ago
    No. Everyone has an equal right as each other precisely because we all share the same planet! It would seem far more weird to me to argue the opposite: “These people have the right to emit 2x or 10x as much as these other people!” (Or equivalently, “these people are only allowed to emit 10% or 50% of what these other people are…”)
    - spwa4 22d ago
      > No. Everyone has an equal right as each other precisely because we all share the same planet! The issue is that in the current situation, that effectively means we might as well give up on the idea of doing anything about climate change. Besides, people don't care about CO2 emissions, only factory owners do, governments do. People care about energy available for use for them personally. In fact people generally dislike anything that emits CO2, from cars (somewhat) to coal mines and plants (which people dislike A LOT). If you care about "everyone", there's no need to give people CO2 emission rights, just energy.
- RugnirViking 22d ago
  right. I agree with this for a large part - I do think though, that chinas current level per capita 10.81 tons (higher than EU 7.14 tons, less than america 17.34 tons) is not sustanable, and they do not seem to be taking it seriously enough by my estimation. I also think that US emissions are far too high and must be reduced

sokoloff 22d ago

I believe that every person has just as much right to emit pollution in 2027 as every other person in 2027. What that person emitted in 2025 has no bearing on their 2027 “allowance”. We can certainly discuss how much is an appropriate, sustainable, or defensible per-person amount, but I’m only interested in the 2027 amounts, not the increase in their amount versus a prior period, nor in allowing past large emitters to continue at higher rates than past low-emitters. (I think we strongly agree on your last paragraph’s point. That was the point of my GP post, but maybe it didn’t land somehow.)

spwa4 22d ago
> I believe that every person has just as much right to emit pollution in 2027 as every other person in 2027. Because every person has their own planet?
- sokoloff 22d ago
  No. Everyone has an equal right as each other precisely because we all share the same planet! It would seem far more weird to me to argue the opposite: “These people have the right to emit 2x or 10x as much as these other people!” (Or equivalently, “these people are only allowed to emit 10% or 50% of what these other people are…”)
  - spwa4 22d ago
    > No. Everyone has an equal right as each other precisely because we all share the same planet! The issue is that in the current situation, that effectively means we might as well give up on the idea of doing anything about climate change. Besides, people don't care about CO2 emissions, only factory owners do, governments do. People care about energy available for use for them personally. In fact people generally dislike anything that emits CO2, from cars (somewhat) to coal mines and plants (which people dislike A LOT). If you care about "everyone", there's no need to give people CO2 emission rights, just energy.
RugnirViking 22d ago
right. I agree with this for a large part - I do think though, that chinas current level per capita 10.81 tons (higher than EU 7.14 tons, less than america 17.34 tons) is not sustanable, and they do not seem to be taking it seriously enough by my estimation. I also think that US emissions are far too high and must be reduced