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I honestly think it would be completely legit to build a completely separate ecosystem on top of the same protocol. A separate set of relays, separate apps whic

I honestly think it would be completely legit to build a completely separate ecosystem on top of the same protocol. A separate set of relays, separate apps which connect to those relays by default, no lighting payments, different defaults, marketed to a different audience. Ultimately it is not just a single network. If users need interoperability eventually they can easily add other relays. But it's true that many people are put off by the current community.

siwatanejo 22d ago
> no lighting payments Nah, you didn't understand it. Lightning is a layer-2 protocol on top of bitcoin. Nostr is the so-called layer-3. Good luck trying to build Nostr without Lightning.
- teekert 22d ago
  False. Nostr is not “Layer 3” in any standard technical sense. Nostr is an open, decentralized protocol for exchanging and publishing messages/events. It doesn't sit on top of Bitcoin or Lightning in the way Lightning sits on Bitcoin. You absolutely can build/use Nostr without Lightning. Stop with this (anti-crypto)-bro fear mongering (yes anti-crypto in brackets as 1 thing). It's not helping FOSS, it's doing big-tech's work. You're just lying because you hate crypto. That is as bad as the blind evangelizing of cryptocurrencies.
  - deleted 22d ago
    [deleted]
  - siwatanejo 22d ago
    Oh look, an anti-crypto guy that advocates for L402 support!!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 Beeeep, wrong. Next question.
    - teekert 22d ago
      If you have any other proposal for true micropayments (as in fractions of cents of value that flow freely) please, indulge me. I for one would prefer to give value via lightning over forcing my eyeballs on ads everywhere I look. Same goes for the agents I deploy, I'd like to have methods of returning value for whatever value they extract (in the form of information).
      - siwatanejo 22d ago
        You seem to not have understood my previous message at all. You said I'm anti-crypto, then I linked you to a msg I wrote in the past advocating for L402 (which is a Lightning-based protocol). I was just telling you that you're wrong. I'm a big believer that Lightning is the only way to solve micropayments. Now get your conspiracy theories somewhere else please.
        teekert 22d ago
        I indeed misunderstood, didn't realize that was you yourself you linked to. Sorry we are on the same boot it seems. Still, you're wrong about Nostr being useless without Lightning. And it is unhelpful to suggest it is.
        siwatanejo 22d ago
        You stand corrected, and I stand corrected too because I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w (as suggested by other user in another comment) and it finally clicked.
      - inigyou 22d ago
        My proposal is that you don't.
        teekert 22d ago
        Imo any fair future economy should embrace decentralized 9ie without a company taking a cut Apple style) frictionless sharing of value. Either that or we must have strive for a fair post-scarcity economy (Star Trek like). The way things are going I'm even more skeptical about achieving that.
- jasonvorhe 22d ago
  What are you even talking about? I've been building nostr apps for 2 years and never touched Lightning. wtf.
- iamnothere 22d ago
  It’s easy to have Nostr without it. Lightning support was an afterthought and you can just choose not to implement that NIP in the client. On the relay side you could just filter out that event type. Not hard at all. The amount of ignorance about Nostr (by both pro and antis) is astounding for such a simple concept. I feel like literally nobody reads the very short specs.

siwatanejo 22d ago

> no lighting payments Nah, you didn't understand it. Lightning is a layer-2 protocol on top of bitcoin. Nostr is the so-called layer-3. Good luck trying to build Nostr without Lightning.

teekert 22d ago
False. Nostr is not “Layer 3” in any standard technical sense. Nostr is an open, decentralized protocol for exchanging and publishing messages/events. It doesn't sit on top of Bitcoin or Lightning in the way Lightning sits on Bitcoin. You absolutely can build/use Nostr without Lightning. Stop with this (anti-crypto)-bro fear mongering (yes anti-crypto in brackets as 1 thing). It's not helping FOSS, it's doing big-tech's work. You're just lying because you hate crypto. That is as bad as the blind evangelizing of cryptocurrencies.
- deleted 22d ago
  [deleted]
- siwatanejo 22d ago
  Oh look, an anti-crypto guy that advocates for L402 support!!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 Beeeep, wrong. Next question.
  - teekert 22d ago
    If you have any other proposal for true micropayments (as in fractions of cents of value that flow freely) please, indulge me. I for one would prefer to give value via lightning over forcing my eyeballs on ads everywhere I look. Same goes for the agents I deploy, I'd like to have methods of returning value for whatever value they extract (in the form of information).
    - siwatanejo 22d ago
      You seem to not have understood my previous message at all. You said I'm anti-crypto, then I linked you to a msg I wrote in the past advocating for L402 (which is a Lightning-based protocol). I was just telling you that you're wrong. I'm a big believer that Lightning is the only way to solve micropayments. Now get your conspiracy theories somewhere else please.
      - teekert 22d ago
        I indeed misunderstood, didn't realize that was you yourself you linked to. Sorry we are on the same boot it seems. Still, you're wrong about Nostr being useless without Lightning. And it is unhelpful to suggest it is.
        siwatanejo 22d ago
        You stand corrected, and I stand corrected too because I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w (as suggested by other user in another comment) and it finally clicked.
    - inigyou 22d ago
      My proposal is that you don't.
      - teekert 22d ago
        Imo any fair future economy should embrace decentralized 9ie without a company taking a cut Apple style) frictionless sharing of value. Either that or we must have strive for a fair post-scarcity economy (Star Trek like). The way things are going I'm even more skeptical about achieving that.
jasonvorhe 22d ago
What are you even talking about? I've been building nostr apps for 2 years and never touched Lightning. wtf.
iamnothere 22d ago
It’s easy to have Nostr without it. Lightning support was an afterthought and you can just choose not to implement that NIP in the client. On the relay side you could just filter out that event type. Not hard at all. The amount of ignorance about Nostr (by both pro and antis) is astounding for such a simple concept. I feel like literally nobody reads the very short specs.