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I'm just not sure that stronger punishment and enforcement is going to be the answer here. It seems like many of the Asian cultures have a much higher level of

I'm just not sure that stronger punishment and enforcement is going to be the answer here. It seems like many of the Asian cultures have a much higher level of social cohesion even without the threat of punishment. How do we get (back) to higher social cohesion in the West? I recall seeing a film of a shanty town somewhere in the US during the Great Depression. It was very neat and tidy. What happened between then and now?

ipaddr 23d ago
America has a low social cohension because of global immigration instead of targeted immigration compare to China. America use to share a culture because people came from the same places and shared the same religion and had a common history going back to the Romans.
- dripdry45 23d ago
  ....sadly more true than anyone here would probably like to admit. I love having Indian coworkers and there’s a large Indian population where I am at, but they are just completely separated in every single way from everyone else. and they keep it that way. my Pakistani coworkers are absolutely wonderful. Sweet, hard-working, very enjoyable to talk to, but their families and lives are just a totally different universe and they don’t share it. The honestly very poor black community around the area? they fucking hate us white people. like actively, all the time, no what no matter what you have or haven’t done they don’t like your ass one bit. i’ve seen inside some of the homes, and they are filled with independent black power movie posters about shooting Whitey. No kidding. I know it takes a village, but when people are so very different and forced to be near each other, it doesn’t mean that they will socialize or help each other; it’s like living on two different planets. there’s all kinds of social research showing this now, and what you get is micro segregation along income lines, rather than everyone helping each other and lifting up the community together. I wanted for most of my life for people to get along and the world to be a better place, thinking that education and modern access to information could somehow make things better. It seems that was entirely and completely wrong. when people have any kind of discomfort at all about new culture or new person or new idea? They pretty much just run away. The people here on hacker news are probably an exception, because we are here searching for commentary and interesting ideas and new information.
  - worik 23d ago
    What an awful society you live in. It is not like that where I live. The first generation of immigrants have trouble, natural enough. But are very keen that their children do better. As for racism: Most racism here is systemic, from the state. There is casual ignorant racism, of course, but little hate. What a mess has been made of your country. You should work to fix it. It took us a lot of work to get here, and we have a long way to go. But I cannot imagine living in a society such as you describe.
    - Gud 23d ago
      Where I’m from, Sweden, typically it is the second and third generation immigrants who exhibit antisocial behaviour.
      - ipaddr 23d ago
        Its true im many places. First generation hard working. Second generation lives in the inprint of the first generation. Third generation has no connection to the original homeland and tries to find connection or it turns to antisocial behaviour.
        Gud 23d ago
        The first generation could hardly be classified as “hard working”, the sad fact is many of them live on (generous) welfare.
        defrost 23d ago
        You only have to look at Trump; third generation immigrant. His grandfather made his fortune by operating a restaurant and a brothel for miners in Whitehorse during the Gold Rush years, his father compounded that with an actual real estate 'empire' and the grandson 'earnt' money via dodgy wealth transfer schemes and sank much of it into get rich quick scams and branding deals based on fraudulent representation and money laundering, now leading the country in historic levels of open corruption.
- dolmen 23d ago
  > a common history going back to the Romans. Native Americans are not related to Romans. Slaves brought by force from Africa neither.
  - Eueudhsbsj32 23d ago
    Neither of those two groups were citizens of America historically.
  - redsocksfan45 22d ago
    [dead]
mvdtnz 23d ago
Which Asian cultures are you speaking about which have high social cohesion without threat of punishment? Singapore will punish anti-social behaviour like vandalism with mandatory caning, or fine you heavily for jay walking. In Japan police will intervene much more readily in cases of public intoxication and even noise complaints. For more serious anti social behaviour like gun crimes, violent crimes and drug trafficking there are very strong mandatory penalties up to and including corporal punishment and execution. Conviction rates in these countries are upwards of 99%. So in cases of intervention a punishment is almost certain.
ajmurmann 23d ago
Is the problem social cohesion or mental illness and meth and fentanyl addiction?
joshuat 23d ago
Stronger punishments? Probably not, but better enforcement? I believe so. It has repeatedly been shown that the severity of punishment does not sway crime nearly as much as the certainty of punishment does [1]. This all feels like a byproduct of the hyper-individualism we have in the West and the US, especially. [1] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/670398 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/670398
- podocarp 23d ago
  Indeed. Wasn't there a study where a policeman stationed on a street corner decreased crime or something even if he was just standing there doing nothing? Like a scarecrow effect. Of course people will come out and scream Gestapo! And talk about their freedoms, but are the only two choices in life complete anarchy and a police state? Can't we live somewhere in the middle like a reasonable society? It's really just slippery slope fallacies all the time like either we don't police at all or do north korea style surveillance. Also the demonization of police, the need is to have better police, not no police! It's just absurd what people come up with, it's so unreasonable yet these ideas gain such a large following.
  - deadfoxygrandpa 23d ago
    there are police booths on many street corners in urban areas of china. they're very common, and people don't act afraid of them. the most common interaction you see is people asking them for directions
    - podocarp 19d ago
      Sorry I don't understand your reply. Are you agreeing with me? The police booth is not to make you afraid. The idea is that it would deter pickpockets and other petty crime just by being there, regardless of whether the booth was meant to do so or not. Yes it could just be a almost retired security guard inside giving out directions but that would still work better than nothing at all.

ipaddr 23d ago

America has a low social cohension because of global immigration instead of targeted immigration compare to China. America use to share a culture because people came from the same places and shared the same religion and had a common history going back to the Romans.

dripdry45 23d ago
....sadly more true than anyone here would probably like to admit. I love having Indian coworkers and there’s a large Indian population where I am at, but they are just completely separated in every single way from everyone else. and they keep it that way. my Pakistani coworkers are absolutely wonderful. Sweet, hard-working, very enjoyable to talk to, but their families and lives are just a totally different universe and they don’t share it. The honestly very poor black community around the area? they fucking hate us white people. like actively, all the time, no what no matter what you have or haven’t done they don’t like your ass one bit. i’ve seen inside some of the homes, and they are filled with independent black power movie posters about shooting Whitey. No kidding. I know it takes a village, but when people are so very different and forced to be near each other, it doesn’t mean that they will socialize or help each other; it’s like living on two different planets. there’s all kinds of social research showing this now, and what you get is micro segregation along income lines, rather than everyone helping each other and lifting up the community together. I wanted for most of my life for people to get along and the world to be a better place, thinking that education and modern access to information could somehow make things better. It seems that was entirely and completely wrong. when people have any kind of discomfort at all about new culture or new person or new idea? They pretty much just run away. The people here on hacker news are probably an exception, because we are here searching for commentary and interesting ideas and new information.
- worik 23d ago
  What an awful society you live in. It is not like that where I live. The first generation of immigrants have trouble, natural enough. But are very keen that their children do better. As for racism: Most racism here is systemic, from the state. There is casual ignorant racism, of course, but little hate. What a mess has been made of your country. You should work to fix it. It took us a lot of work to get here, and we have a long way to go. But I cannot imagine living in a society such as you describe.
  - Gud 23d ago
    Where I’m from, Sweden, typically it is the second and third generation immigrants who exhibit antisocial behaviour.
    - ipaddr 23d ago
      Its true im many places. First generation hard working. Second generation lives in the inprint of the first generation. Third generation has no connection to the original homeland and tries to find connection or it turns to antisocial behaviour.
      - Gud 23d ago
        The first generation could hardly be classified as “hard working”, the sad fact is many of them live on (generous) welfare.
        defrost 23d ago
        You only have to look at Trump; third generation immigrant. His grandfather made his fortune by operating a restaurant and a brothel for miners in Whitehorse during the Gold Rush years, his father compounded that with an actual real estate 'empire' and the grandson 'earnt' money via dodgy wealth transfer schemes and sank much of it into get rich quick scams and branding deals based on fraudulent representation and money laundering, now leading the country in historic levels of open corruption.
dolmen 23d ago
> a common history going back to the Romans. Native Americans are not related to Romans. Slaves brought by force from Africa neither.
- Eueudhsbsj32 23d ago
  Neither of those two groups were citizens of America historically.
- redsocksfan45 22d ago
  [dead]

mvdtnz 23d ago

Which Asian cultures are you speaking about which have high social cohesion without threat of punishment? Singapore will punish anti-social behaviour like vandalism with mandatory caning, or fine you heavily for jay walking. In Japan police will intervene much more readily in cases of public intoxication and even noise complaints. For more serious anti social behaviour like gun crimes, violent crimes and drug trafficking there are very strong mandatory penalties up to and including corporal punishment and execution. Conviction rates in these countries are upwards of 99%. So in cases of intervention a punishment is almost certain.

ajmurmann 23d ago

Is the problem social cohesion or mental illness and meth and fentanyl addiction?

joshuat 23d ago

Stronger punishments? Probably not, but better enforcement? I believe so. It has repeatedly been shown that the severity of punishment does not sway crime nearly as much as the certainty of punishment does [1]. This all feels like a byproduct of the hyper-individualism we have in the West and the US, especially. [1] https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/670398 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/670398

podocarp 23d ago
Indeed. Wasn't there a study where a policeman stationed on a street corner decreased crime or something even if he was just standing there doing nothing? Like a scarecrow effect. Of course people will come out and scream Gestapo! And talk about their freedoms, but are the only two choices in life complete anarchy and a police state? Can't we live somewhere in the middle like a reasonable society? It's really just slippery slope fallacies all the time like either we don't police at all or do north korea style surveillance. Also the demonization of police, the need is to have better police, not no police! It's just absurd what people come up with, it's so unreasonable yet these ideas gain such a large following.
- deadfoxygrandpa 23d ago
  there are police booths on many street corners in urban areas of china. they're very common, and people don't act afraid of them. the most common interaction you see is people asking them for directions
  - podocarp 19d ago
    Sorry I don't understand your reply. Are you agreeing with me? The police booth is not to make you afraid. The idea is that it would deter pickpockets and other petty crime just by being there, regardless of whether the booth was meant to do so or not. Yes it could just be a almost retired security guard inside giving out directions but that would still work better than nothing at all.