6 ms·

I think describing what's happening "other countries seem to sit on their hands and happily outsource every bit of manufacturing to a single country" is disinge

by TSiege 24d ago

I think describing what's happening "other countries seem to sit on their hands and happily outsource every bit of manufacturing to a single country" is disingenuous. It's been dubbed China Shock 2.0 and it's being taken very seriously by the EU. The US admin is a joke and too busy shooting itself in both feet to have coherent policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Shock_2.0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Shock_2.0

1234letshaveatw 24d ago
yet somehow the outcome for the US has been much better. EU wins on paper though, yay!
- oblio 24d ago
  > outcome for the US has been much better Is this better outcome for the US in the room with us?
  - nxm 24d ago
    Compare any measurable economic and investment stat in EU vs US
    - makingstuffs 24d ago
      What happens when you compare quality of life? Or workers rights? Pretty sure that your average person cares more about those two data points…
      - saturn8601 24d ago
        That might be a mirage temporarily made reality by outsourcing defense to the US, manufacturing to China and the work required for GDP growth to refugees. All three will be going away sooner or later.
        AngryData 24d ago
        How is locally producing military equipment versus buying extremely expensive US uberl33t overkill hardware suppose to hurt the EU? It not like the US was just giving Europe free armaments. Yeah sure they won't be producing any F35s or million dollar per shot missiles, but was that a good idea to start with? Are they worth the money when once again lots of inexpensive arms are shown to be more useful in modern wars than a few handfuls of expensive ones? Both Iran and Ukraine have shown that one side being a few steps ahead in military technology and willing to dump money on equipment still has limited returns. There is no "I win" technology apart from indiscriminately killing most of the entire population, which just makes you an existential enemy to the rest of the planet and erases 95% of the value in taking that territory.
        saturn8601 24d ago
        Its really not that obvious to you? Because not having US bases on site and technology sharing and agreements takes money away from entitlements. France tried to cut entitlements by a tiny bit and the yellow vest movement was born. In the long run the Yellow Vests might end up losing everything as a result. Regardless of the tech stack the work still needs to be done and now the EU has to do it. The Eu does not have infinite money, in fact they have less than the US so there will be cuts elsewhere.
        anon48293 24d ago
        Pretty sure almost every European would celebrate any of these things
        saturn8601 24d ago
        If they did, they would have done it already. Instead when there was an attempt, some protested wearing yellow vests. There will be more. Whether or not the governments force the issue or they lose to the voters does not matter: Either way quality of life will suffer.
        oblio 24d ago
        Before outsourcing defense to the US... sorry, but have you ever read a history book? Europe was "exporting defense" around the world before the US got involved in the world wars :-)) Before outsourcing manufacturing to China Europe was making a third of all industrial things on this planet, so Europe will be just fine. > the work required for GDP growth to refugees I don't get this one. Do you think the European economy is propped up by refugees? I think there are 5 million of them in total in Europe, most of them Ukrainians and it's likely Ukraine will become a EU member at some point in the future...
      - wasfgwp 24d ago
        Western Europe has been mostly stagnant or declining while real incomes for most workers have actually grown in the same period (and for a significant proportion of the population to a very large degree).
- Dah00n 24d ago
  Sure if you are Bezos or Musk. Otherwise, no.
  - holoduke 24d ago
    Gdp grew much faster in the US than in the EU. I believe the EU is the worst performer of the planet. No joke. And not surprising with the self destructive actions.
    - Sohcahtoa82 24d ago
      This doesn't really refute what Dah00n said. Sure, GDP in the USA is growing faster than the EU, but the question is who is benefiting from the increased GDP? The answer is in Dah00n's comment. The rich are getting richer, while the population gets scraps. Meanwhile, people in the EU get guaranteed healthcare, paid time off, maternity leave, better worker's rights, etc.
      - wasfgwp 24d ago
        > Meanwhile, people in the EU get guaranteed healthcare They had that 20 years ago? Since then the rich asset owners have been accumulating a bigger share of the pie in the EU as well, it’s just marginally less pronounced because there is less wealth to go about in the EU due to the multi-decade long stagnation (outside Eastern Europe and a handful of other countries). On the whole I find it extremely hard to view this as a positive without a huge amount of wishful thinking. People in the EU need to start thinking about how to improve things rather than exclusively focusing on holding onto what they already have (which is slowly turning into scraps..). To a large extent the old EU countries just froze in time after the GFC.
    - well_ackshually 24d ago
      Because as everyone knows, GDP is _the_ indicator for well being of its citizens. Nobody in the US is in catastrophic health related debt, because the US's GDP grew so much <3
      - 24d ago
deleted 24d ago
[deleted]
kroaton 24d ago
As if our EU leaders aren't a complete joke as well. Pushing ChatControl, fascism and gambling everywhere. We're just as much of a joke.
pydry 24d ago
It's not disingenuous. It was obvious this was happening 15 years ago and the US and EU could have done something about it back then. The tendency to protect corporate profit margins is the western Achilles heel and China knew they could exploit that.

by TSiege 24d ago

1234letshaveatw 24d ago

yet somehow the outcome for the US has been much better. EU wins on paper though, yay!

oblio 24d ago
> outcome for the US has been much better Is this better outcome for the US in the room with us?
- nxm 24d ago
  Compare any measurable economic and investment stat in EU vs US
  - makingstuffs 24d ago
    What happens when you compare quality of life? Or workers rights? Pretty sure that your average person cares more about those two data points…
    - saturn8601 24d ago
      That might be a mirage temporarily made reality by outsourcing defense to the US, manufacturing to China and the work required for GDP growth to refugees. All three will be going away sooner or later.
      - AngryData 24d ago
        How is locally producing military equipment versus buying extremely expensive US uberl33t overkill hardware suppose to hurt the EU? It not like the US was just giving Europe free armaments. Yeah sure they won't be producing any F35s or million dollar per shot missiles, but was that a good idea to start with? Are they worth the money when once again lots of inexpensive arms are shown to be more useful in modern wars than a few handfuls of expensive ones? Both Iran and Ukraine have shown that one side being a few steps ahead in military technology and willing to dump money on equipment still has limited returns. There is no "I win" technology apart from indiscriminately killing most of the entire population, which just makes you an existential enemy to the rest of the planet and erases 95% of the value in taking that territory.
        saturn8601 24d ago
        Its really not that obvious to you? Because not having US bases on site and technology sharing and agreements takes money away from entitlements. France tried to cut entitlements by a tiny bit and the yellow vest movement was born. In the long run the Yellow Vests might end up losing everything as a result. Regardless of the tech stack the work still needs to be done and now the EU has to do it. The Eu does not have infinite money, in fact they have less than the US so there will be cuts elsewhere.
      - anon48293 24d ago
        Pretty sure almost every European would celebrate any of these things
        saturn8601 24d ago
        If they did, they would have done it already. Instead when there was an attempt, some protested wearing yellow vests. There will be more. Whether or not the governments force the issue or they lose to the voters does not matter: Either way quality of life will suffer.
      - oblio 24d ago
        Before outsourcing defense to the US... sorry, but have you ever read a history book? Europe was "exporting defense" around the world before the US got involved in the world wars :-)) Before outsourcing manufacturing to China Europe was making a third of all industrial things on this planet, so Europe will be just fine. > the work required for GDP growth to refugees I don't get this one. Do you think the European economy is propped up by refugees? I think there are 5 million of them in total in Europe, most of them Ukrainians and it's likely Ukraine will become a EU member at some point in the future...
    - wasfgwp 24d ago
      Western Europe has been mostly stagnant or declining while real incomes for most workers have actually grown in the same period (and for a significant proportion of the population to a very large degree).
Dah00n 24d ago
Sure if you are Bezos or Musk. Otherwise, no.
- holoduke 24d ago
  Gdp grew much faster in the US than in the EU. I believe the EU is the worst performer of the planet. No joke. And not surprising with the self destructive actions.
  - Sohcahtoa82 24d ago
    This doesn't really refute what Dah00n said. Sure, GDP in the USA is growing faster than the EU, but the question is who is benefiting from the increased GDP? The answer is in Dah00n's comment. The rich are getting richer, while the population gets scraps. Meanwhile, people in the EU get guaranteed healthcare, paid time off, maternity leave, better worker's rights, etc.
    - wasfgwp 24d ago
      > Meanwhile, people in the EU get guaranteed healthcare They had that 20 years ago? Since then the rich asset owners have been accumulating a bigger share of the pie in the EU as well, it’s just marginally less pronounced because there is less wealth to go about in the EU due to the multi-decade long stagnation (outside Eastern Europe and a handful of other countries). On the whole I find it extremely hard to view this as a positive without a huge amount of wishful thinking. People in the EU need to start thinking about how to improve things rather than exclusively focusing on holding onto what they already have (which is slowly turning into scraps..). To a large extent the old EU countries just froze in time after the GFC.
  - well_ackshually 24d ago
    Because as everyone knows, GDP is _the_ indicator for well being of its citizens. Nobody in the US is in catastrophic health related debt, because the US's GDP grew so much <3
    - 24d ago

deleted 24d ago

[deleted]

kroaton 24d ago

As if our EU leaders aren't a complete joke as well. Pushing ChatControl, fascism and gambling everywhere. We're just as much of a joke.

pydry 24d ago

It's not disingenuous. It was obvious this was happening 15 years ago and the US and EU could have done something about it back then. The tendency to protect corporate profit margins is the western Achilles heel and China knew they could exploit that.