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I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I shoul

I would like this to be extended to software. If I buy an Android phone, I should be able to maintain/update the operating system. If I buy a MacBook, I should be able to maintain or change the operating system. If I buy a TV, smart watch, microwave - I should be able to maintain their software. The only thing prohibiting this is the fact that drivers are obfuscated and/or hardware schematics sufficient to produce drivers are not provided. IMO, if the EU wants any technical sovereignty, they'd address this as I don't see European companies producing a competitor to the MacBook - I do however see European companies being capable of creating a competing operating system (or Linux) to install on a MacBook, but only if Apple is compelled to allow them. The same goes for smartphones, cars, and any digital device

carlosjobim 24d ago
You are able to do that, just like you are able to drill out the cylinders of your brand new car. If you are skilled enough. But the manufacturer doesn't have any obligation to teach you how.
- eimrine 24d ago
  Drilling is easy, dealing with ECU is not.
- benj111 24d ago
  Except a better comparison is you can replace your cylinders, but then the engine won't work because the ECU detects none registered cylinders.
eimrine 24d ago
Of course you should, pal! You should not buy any proprietary shite to stop investing into even more invasive proprietary antiuseful technologies. But you use to not do that, so we both are going to experience suffering. Thank you for being the bad actor for me.
- braiamp 24d ago
  This comment implies that we have options... we do not have options. Hell, there are places where such options are actually outlawed!
  - bji9jhff 23d ago
    Which options are outlawed and where?
    - braiamp 23d ago
      Just look at anything that require certification and prohibit modification, PCI endpoints, FIPS, fuel pumps, aviation, medical software, gambling machines... most of those are outlawed because the law made it prohibitively expensive or cumbersome for someone to make an alternative even if the implementation is known
      - fsflover 22d ago
        Despite all these, GNU/Linux phones exist and can be daily drivers for technical people. And you can download their schematics, too. Sent from my Librem 5.
        apatheticonion 22d ago
        I am on that team and REALLY want it to be the case - but GNU/LInux devices are usually a significantly worse hardware experience than their walled garden cousins. For example, there is literally no laptop on Earth as nice as the MacBook Pro. Extremely long battery life, insane CPU & GPU performance, unmatched trackpad - but it runs MacOS. Unless you're a professional video editor, the laptop is largely relegated to being a thin client for a Linux machine you SSH into (or spawn a non hardware accelerated VM and demolish performance / power). How long would it take Apple to develop Linux drivers (even as binary blobs like nvidia)? Probably a couple of weekends. Why don't they? Because walled garden. The MacBook is lucky in that it's a high profile device so we see projects like Asahi working at it - but again, without good documentation and despite the incredible progress, the Asahi team have spent years and created an alternative for older Apple hardware that still isn't daily drivable (not throwing shade at the project, it's incredible and I am dying to use Linux on my MacBook). But what about devices with less enthusiastic communities? Pixel 8? Samsung TV? Asus Router? Fitbit Air? D-Link portable 5g modem? My smart blinds? These devices have no drivers, locked bootloaders, and no community to spend years reverse engineering hardware (that will be obsolete by the time OSS drivers are developed). I want to see my high end consumer hardware running OSS and until regulators step in to force the "right to repair software" - I don't see that happening and it breaks my heart.
maxerickson 24d ago
It's pretty likely that manufacturers would charge handsomely for these requirements. At least at first. You'd probably also get things like TVs with very basic software at import, with much better software available for people willing to obtain it outside the EU.
- thunfischtoast 24d ago
  Which modern TV has good software? Seems like pretty much all TVs today come with horrible software. I'd very much like the option to only have a basic OS on there that's actually snappy like my old TVs used to be and not need to load its menu from the internet every time I start it.
- fanatic2pope 24d ago
  A TV without software sounds like a dream. Just give me a working HDMI-in port and I'll take care of the rest, thanks!
  - maxerickson 23d ago
    Yeah that's misunderstanding my point. The compliance software might, for example, only play an old format from USB. Probably at low resolution.
    - Telaneo 23d ago
      If it's a TV, I don't want that either. If it's something where that type of functionality will be useful, it'll surely be listed in the specs, and nobody's going to buy it if it only lists 480p. If it lists better capabilities (on EU listings and whatnot), but it can only actually do that with the non-EU firmware, then that sounds like false advertising to me. Not to mention that if people can actually reprogram it, someone will reimplement the relevant features.
amelius 24d ago
You forgot iPhone.
- apatheticonion 23d ago
  FR the iPhone is such a great missed opportunity. Imagine if someone developed a Linux based mobile OS that could run on it. Imagine if someone figured out that the USB-C port could do displayport out. Then imagine plugging that Linux iPhone into a usbc dock or lapdock (laptop with only a screen, keyboard and usbc input) and having a Linux desktop pop up. The MacBook Neo already proved that iPhone hardware is fast enough for general purpose desktop computing - why aren't we allowed to do that? Oh right, because the bootloader is locked and (practically) no one outside of Apple can produce hardware drivers without documentation. It isn't a lack of skill or lack of demand - it's hardware gatekeeping by vendors.
  - fsflover 22d ago
    Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47367568 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47367568
jonkoops 23d ago
It really should be required for manufacturers to publish full details about how the hardware works so that alternative software can be developed. I'd wholly support that.
- celiacFun 19d ago
  They do though. There are hundreds of pages of specs you can read about it if you want to.
  - apatheticonion 15d ago
    Not true. Apple, for instance, does not provide low level device documentation sufficient for creating open source drivers - for instance - publishing documentation on the Apple GPU and coprocessor would have reduced the development effort of the Asahi GPU driver by 90%. If Apple was compelled to release low level documentation for their Apple Silicon hardware (audio, usb, gpu, power management, etc) - Linux would have been running on Apple hardware long ago.

carlosjobim 24d ago

You are able to do that, just like you are able to drill out the cylinders of your brand new car. If you are skilled enough. But the manufacturer doesn't have any obligation to teach you how.

eimrine 24d ago
Drilling is easy, dealing with ECU is not.
benj111 24d ago
Except a better comparison is you can replace your cylinders, but then the engine won't work because the ECU detects none registered cylinders.

eimrine 24d ago

Of course you should, pal! You should not buy any proprietary shite to stop investing into even more invasive proprietary antiuseful technologies. But you use to not do that, so we both are going to experience suffering. Thank you for being the bad actor for me.

braiamp 24d ago
This comment implies that we have options... we do not have options. Hell, there are places where such options are actually outlawed!
- bji9jhff 23d ago
  Which options are outlawed and where?
  - braiamp 23d ago
    Just look at anything that require certification and prohibit modification, PCI endpoints, FIPS, fuel pumps, aviation, medical software, gambling machines... most of those are outlawed because the law made it prohibitively expensive or cumbersome for someone to make an alternative even if the implementation is known
    - fsflover 22d ago
      Despite all these, GNU/Linux phones exist and can be daily drivers for technical people. And you can download their schematics, too. Sent from my Librem 5.
      - apatheticonion 22d ago
        I am on that team and REALLY want it to be the case - but GNU/LInux devices are usually a significantly worse hardware experience than their walled garden cousins. For example, there is literally no laptop on Earth as nice as the MacBook Pro. Extremely long battery life, insane CPU & GPU performance, unmatched trackpad - but it runs MacOS. Unless you're a professional video editor, the laptop is largely relegated to being a thin client for a Linux machine you SSH into (or spawn a non hardware accelerated VM and demolish performance / power). How long would it take Apple to develop Linux drivers (even as binary blobs like nvidia)? Probably a couple of weekends. Why don't they? Because walled garden. The MacBook is lucky in that it's a high profile device so we see projects like Asahi working at it - but again, without good documentation and despite the incredible progress, the Asahi team have spent years and created an alternative for older Apple hardware that still isn't daily drivable (not throwing shade at the project, it's incredible and I am dying to use Linux on my MacBook). But what about devices with less enthusiastic communities? Pixel 8? Samsung TV? Asus Router? Fitbit Air? D-Link portable 5g modem? My smart blinds? These devices have no drivers, locked bootloaders, and no community to spend years reverse engineering hardware (that will be obsolete by the time OSS drivers are developed). I want to see my high end consumer hardware running OSS and until regulators step in to force the "right to repair software" - I don't see that happening and it breaks my heart.

maxerickson 24d ago

It's pretty likely that manufacturers would charge handsomely for these requirements. At least at first. You'd probably also get things like TVs with very basic software at import, with much better software available for people willing to obtain it outside the EU.

thunfischtoast 24d ago
Which modern TV has good software? Seems like pretty much all TVs today come with horrible software. I'd very much like the option to only have a basic OS on there that's actually snappy like my old TVs used to be and not need to load its menu from the internet every time I start it.
fanatic2pope 24d ago
A TV without software sounds like a dream. Just give me a working HDMI-in port and I'll take care of the rest, thanks!
- maxerickson 23d ago
  Yeah that's misunderstanding my point. The compliance software might, for example, only play an old format from USB. Probably at low resolution.
  - Telaneo 23d ago
    If it's a TV, I don't want that either. If it's something where that type of functionality will be useful, it'll surely be listed in the specs, and nobody's going to buy it if it only lists 480p. If it lists better capabilities (on EU listings and whatnot), but it can only actually do that with the non-EU firmware, then that sounds like false advertising to me. Not to mention that if people can actually reprogram it, someone will reimplement the relevant features.

amelius 24d ago

You forgot iPhone.

apatheticonion 23d ago
FR the iPhone is such a great missed opportunity. Imagine if someone developed a Linux based mobile OS that could run on it. Imagine if someone figured out that the USB-C port could do displayport out. Then imagine plugging that Linux iPhone into a usbc dock or lapdock (laptop with only a screen, keyboard and usbc input) and having a Linux desktop pop up. The MacBook Neo already proved that iPhone hardware is fast enough for general purpose desktop computing - why aren't we allowed to do that? Oh right, because the bootloader is locked and (practically) no one outside of Apple can produce hardware drivers without documentation. It isn't a lack of skill or lack of demand - it's hardware gatekeeping by vendors.
- fsflover 22d ago
  Related discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47367568 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47367568

jonkoops 23d ago

It really should be required for manufacturers to publish full details about how the hardware works so that alternative software can be developed. I'd wholly support that.

celiacFun 19d ago
They do though. There are hundreds of pages of specs you can read about it if you want to.
- apatheticonion 15d ago
  Not true. Apple, for instance, does not provide low level device documentation sufficient for creating open source drivers - for instance - publishing documentation on the Apple GPU and coprocessor would have reduced the development effort of the Asahi GPU driver by 90%. If Apple was compelled to release low level documentation for their Apple Silicon hardware (audio, usb, gpu, power management, etc) - Linux would have been running on Apple hardware long ago.