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> "democratic socialism" is an oxymoron No it's not, check out Europe, mostly northern countries, it's working just fine. > At the very least there is no pre-

> "democratic socialism" is an oxymoron No it's not, check out Europe, mostly northern countries, it's working just fine. > At the very least there is no pre-existing example of democracy and socialism working side by side. Again, northern europe screaming at you. So you're wrong... Also, you're Canadian, maybe it's not your business

realo 25d ago
I am also a Canadian, and since midnight we are in a big economic war with the USA. I feeel those topics are a bit of my business.
- mittensc 25d ago
  Who exactly imposed those tarriffs?
toss1 25d ago
"Democratic Socialism" is VERY different from "Social Democracy" In socialism with supposed democracy, where the state owns the means of production and supposedly the workers supposedly have a say about everything, they actually end up with a say about nothing (at least not without greasing the right palms in the inevitably corrupt system that arises). In Social Democracy, capitalism is the underlying system, where corporations and workers can own means of production, but it operates under sufficient regulation that the excesses and systemic failures of captialism (e.g., failure to prevent Tragedies Of The Commons, tendency towards monopoly and excess concentration of power, consistent tendency to abuse and impoverish workers, etc.), you end up with successful systems like Northern Europe. The two are very different, and we need to hold the DSA people to the latter and not let them sneak in the former.
- mittensc 25d ago
  You are wrong. The term you are looking for is communism, not socialism. Nordic countries are practicing Democratic Socialism. DSA is not communist. Why are you spreading this crap when it takes 2 neurons and a few searches to find out you are wrong?
  - vladgur 25d ago
    You are mistaking Democratic Socialism (of DSA fame) for Social Democracy practiced by Nordic countries. Different beasts as I explained in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404166
    - mittensc 25d ago
      Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are the same thing
      - vladgur 25d ago
        Really? So tell me how Social Democrat parties of Denmark or Sweden views on capitalism same thing as DSA views on it stated in DSA sites I linked elsewhere? Do these social democrats also want to replace capitalism?
        mittensc 25d ago
        nobody wants to replace capitalism, you're being absurd
        vladgur 25d ago
        I’m observing a pattern - you don’t like to answer questions, provide evidence or context. Youre statements peak at a single sentence with minimal signal. You’re not interested in conversations or debates
        mittensc 24d ago
        You make outrageously wrong claims with no intention of debate, I'm returning your profound deference in kind. Skimming through your comments, your only goal is to demonize DSA because they go against your views with respect to Israel. It doesn't matter to you if what you're saying is true or not, you are not looking for a debate.
vladgur 25d ago
Scandinavian countries you are referring to are practicing Social Democracy, they are not Democratic Socialist states. In other words, Social Democrat != Democratic Socialist Scandinavian model relies on competitive private enterprise to create wealth, combined with strong labor union collective bargaining, universal public services, and high consumption/income taxes that apply broadly across society. DSA seeks to move past or dismantle the capitalist economic system, advocating for social, public, or worker ownership of the means of production.[1] [1] https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/ https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism...
- mittensc 25d ago
  No they do not and it doesn't say that anywhere in the linked website. Why are you lieing? From what i can read they want the same scandinavian model with strong labor unions, universal public services and so on.
  - AnimalMuppet 25d ago
    "We want to collectively own the key economic drivers that dominate our lives, such as energy production and transportation." From the linked website. Now, that's not quite "the means of production", explicitly stated. It's just "the key economic drivers", so most of the means of production. Maybe you ought to be a little less quick to accuse others of lying.
    - mittensc 25d ago
      So what's wrong with that phrase? Norway collectively owns its 'key economic drivers'. Is that a bad thing?, they're still capitalistic, just with better respect for its people. You probably collectively own things via the stock market too.
    - jurgenburgen 25d ago
      The largest energy producer in Finland is state-owned and most cities own their own energy production. What’s the big deal?

realo 25d ago

I am also a Canadian, and since midnight we are in a big economic war with the USA. I feeel those topics are a bit of my business.

mittensc 25d ago
Who exactly imposed those tarriffs?

toss1 25d ago

"Democratic Socialism" is VERY different from "Social Democracy" In socialism with supposed democracy, where the state owns the means of production and supposedly the workers supposedly have a say about everything, they actually end up with a say about nothing (at least not without greasing the right palms in the inevitably corrupt system that arises). In Social Democracy, capitalism is the underlying system, where corporations and workers can own means of production, but it operates under sufficient regulation that the excesses and systemic failures of captialism (e.g., failure to prevent Tragedies Of The Commons, tendency towards monopoly and excess concentration of power, consistent tendency to abuse and impoverish workers, etc.), you end up with successful systems like Northern Europe. The two are very different, and we need to hold the DSA people to the latter and not let them sneak in the former.

mittensc 25d ago
You are wrong. The term you are looking for is communism, not socialism. Nordic countries are practicing Democratic Socialism. DSA is not communist. Why are you spreading this crap when it takes 2 neurons and a few searches to find out you are wrong?
- vladgur 25d ago
  You are mistaking Democratic Socialism (of DSA fame) for Social Democracy practiced by Nordic countries. Different beasts as I explained in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49404166
  - mittensc 25d ago
    Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism are the same thing
    - vladgur 25d ago
      Really? So tell me how Social Democrat parties of Denmark or Sweden views on capitalism same thing as DSA views on it stated in DSA sites I linked elsewhere? Do these social democrats also want to replace capitalism?
      - mittensc 25d ago
        nobody wants to replace capitalism, you're being absurd
        vladgur 25d ago
        I’m observing a pattern - you don’t like to answer questions, provide evidence or context. Youre statements peak at a single sentence with minimal signal. You’re not interested in conversations or debates
        mittensc 24d ago
        You make outrageously wrong claims with no intention of debate, I'm returning your profound deference in kind. Skimming through your comments, your only goal is to demonize DSA because they go against your views with respect to Israel. It doesn't matter to you if what you're saying is true or not, you are not looking for a debate.

vladgur 25d ago

Scandinavian countries you are referring to are practicing Social Democracy, they are not Democratic Socialist states. In other words, Social Democrat != Democratic Socialist Scandinavian model relies on competitive private enterprise to create wealth, combined with strong labor union collective bargaining, universal public services, and high consumption/income taxes that apply broadly across society. DSA seeks to move past or dismantle the capitalist economic system, advocating for social, public, or worker ownership of the means of production.[1] [1] https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/ https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism...

mittensc 25d ago
No they do not and it doesn't say that anywhere in the linked website. Why are you lieing? From what i can read they want the same scandinavian model with strong labor unions, universal public services and so on.
- AnimalMuppet 25d ago
  "We want to collectively own the key economic drivers that dominate our lives, such as energy production and transportation." From the linked website. Now, that's not quite "the means of production", explicitly stated. It's just "the key economic drivers", so most of the means of production. Maybe you ought to be a little less quick to accuse others of lying.
  - mittensc 25d ago
    So what's wrong with that phrase? Norway collectively owns its 'key economic drivers'. Is that a bad thing?, they're still capitalistic, just with better respect for its people. You probably collectively own things via the stock market too.
  - jurgenburgen 25d ago
    The largest energy producer in Finland is state-owned and most cities own their own energy production. What’s the big deal?