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This right here is the crux of the argument. WFH people want to do work, take meetings, and just overall get things done. Sure they also want to be at home so

This right here is the crux of the argument. WFH people want to do work, take meetings, and just overall get things done. Sure they also want to be at home so they can use a 15 min break between meetings to start laundry. RTO people want to do work, take meetings, and overall get things done while there are others around them working. RTO people need other people around them constantly. This is the conflict. WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office. WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job.

gherkinnn 28d ago
I like both. What do we do now?
- hightrix 28d ago
  You do what you want without forcing others to do what you want. It’s pretty simple, in my opinion.
  - s1artibartfast 28d ago
    Easier said than done if doing what I have want is only hiring office workers, then suddenly the wfh people aren't happy. They want both the specific job and the ability to work from home. There is a zero sum element to it. The best solution is for workplaces to be up front and consistent in their policies and let people select in or out.
- zymhan 28d ago
  You stop purposefully ignoring the scenario just to pick a fight.
duxup 28d ago
I'm not convinced that people who want to work from home are magically motivated differently by work and to do work than others... They're human, better and worse, like everyone else.
- boogieknite 28d ago
  its not magic its just some nature and nurture. i like wfh bc most of my relationships growing up were distracting troublemakers and slackers. when i had time to myself i noticed i actually accomplished things and then when i worked with others i ended up doing their work too other people grew up with healthy, cooperative relationships
- Timon3 28d ago
  That's how I know that all the people who like RTO are just lying to force everyone back to office. Since the lack of loud noises, interruptions, distractions etc. make me much more productive in HO, the same must be true for everyone else.
tyre 28d ago
I prefer working from an office and I also work on the subway and at home. I actually prefer people _do not_ watch me work. I am introverted, but there are benefits to working in person that aren't replaceable over Zoom. (There are also trade-offs!) Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone? It's so mysterious to me. Not everyone who wants to WFH or RTO have the same needs, perspectives, trade-offs, living situations, working styles, etc. The world has nuance.
- bcjdjsndon 27d ago
  > Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone Without unsolicited personal opinions, there wouldn't be much conversation. And what then, have only people state verifiable truths? Only permit the exchange of pure fact?
  - tyre 27d ago
    Not speaking in hard generalities. > WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job. This is just not true. It makes a sweeping statement about two groups of people with certain preferences, then assertions about how they work / what they want. People can express opinions, while investigating (or at least leaving room for) nuance.
developerDan 28d ago
My company just had an RTO announcement and I kid you not the head of HR said “well I like working from the office” as if that’s a reason why we should as well.
strken 28d ago
> This is the conflict. WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office. If you work from home and I work from the office, you're forcing me to collaborate with you using remote tools, which is just remote work with a longer commute. In this sense, (some) WFHers are only happy when they force RTOers into Microsoft Teams. Of course, there's a much better compromise available to us. I could be on an in-office team with others like me, you could be on a WFH team with others like you, and we'd all be happy.
- hightrix 27d ago
  Many workplaces are global. Even when I’m in the office, I’m still on Teams meetings all day long. Your conclusion is exactly my point. People should work on teams that fit their work habits. Where that falls down is when management hires for WFH but then asks those workers to RTO.
martin- 27d ago
> WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office. You're completely leaving out that WFHers are forcing the RTOers to work in a completely different (and in my opinion worse) way to accommodate the WFHers. > WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job. Or RTOers want to be able to collaborate with their co-workers while WFHers want to sneak away to do laundry and make it impossible to communicate with them in an efficient manner? I don't need them around just to work, I need them around so that I can have a dialogue with them, instead of sending a message that may or may not be answered this week because I have no idea if they are even "at work". I'm exaggerating, but I hope you were too.
- hightrix 27d ago
  First, RTOers can work with other RTOers, right? Or are you suggesting RTOers can’t do their job unless everyone is in the office? Because that is the exact problem I’m describing. Second, if WFHers aren’t available and responsive, they should be put on a PIP and then let go if they don’t improve. WFH is not an excuse to not work. With my team, everyone responds quickly. If they don’t, they don’t last very long.
bcjdjsndon 27d ago
> WFH people want to do work Debatable. They take issue with getting dressed and acting appropriately in an office, I can't imagine they're particularly hard working people given a commute is a hard no for them. You'll complain you haven't got time to do the work next And if you're job can be done without anyone needing to speak to you, or you to them, it's probably not that important and ripe for AI to take off your hands, so enjoy it while you can autist
- albatross79 27d ago
  The water cooler hero over here, when's the next pizza lunch boss?
- hightrix 27d ago
  I’ve witnessed it first hand, WAY more work gets done when people WFH than in the office. The constant stop bus, or coffee breaks, or “let’s walk over to the other building for this meeting” taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time. The WFH team I manage is one of the most capable and hardest working teams I’ve ever been on. You can take that outdated attitude elsewhere, thank you. We collaborate all day long on teams. Various work focused and non work focused chats are constantly happening.
  - bcjdjsndon 27d ago
    > taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time. I love how you couldn't think of an example of work other than a teams meeting lol is that all you do WFH then?
    - albatross79 27d ago
      What are you doing exactly? Building railroads? Tech is meetings and coding.
    - hightrix 16d ago
      Yes. I work in tech and I'm either doing focused work or in meetings. This is the case regardless of in office or at home.

gherkinnn 28d ago

I like both. What do we do now?

hightrix 28d ago
You do what you want without forcing others to do what you want. It’s pretty simple, in my opinion.
- s1artibartfast 28d ago
  Easier said than done if doing what I have want is only hiring office workers, then suddenly the wfh people aren't happy. They want both the specific job and the ability to work from home. There is a zero sum element to it. The best solution is for workplaces to be up front and consistent in their policies and let people select in or out.
zymhan 28d ago
You stop purposefully ignoring the scenario just to pick a fight.

duxup 28d ago

I'm not convinced that people who want to work from home are magically motivated differently by work and to do work than others... They're human, better and worse, like everyone else.

boogieknite 28d ago
its not magic its just some nature and nurture. i like wfh bc most of my relationships growing up were distracting troublemakers and slackers. when i had time to myself i noticed i actually accomplished things and then when i worked with others i ended up doing their work too other people grew up with healthy, cooperative relationships
Timon3 28d ago
That's how I know that all the people who like RTO are just lying to force everyone back to office. Since the lack of loud noises, interruptions, distractions etc. make me much more productive in HO, the same must be true for everyone else.

tyre 28d ago

I prefer working from an office and I also work on the subway and at home. I actually prefer people _do not_ watch me work. I am introverted, but there are benefits to working in person that aren't replaceable over Zoom. (There are also trade-offs!) Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone? It's so mysterious to me. Not everyone who wants to WFH or RTO have the same needs, perspectives, trade-offs, living situations, working styles, etc. The world has nuance.

bcjdjsndon 27d ago
> Separately, why do some commenters think that their personal experience is representative of Everyone Without unsolicited personal opinions, there wouldn't be much conversation. And what then, have only people state verifiable truths? Only permit the exchange of pure fact?
- tyre 27d ago
  Not speaking in hard generalities. > WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job. This is just not true. It makes a sweeping statement about two groups of people with certain preferences, then assertions about how they work / what they want. People can express opinions, while investigating (or at least leaving room for) nuance.

developerDan 28d ago

My company just had an RTO announcement and I kid you not the head of HR said “well I like working from the office” as if that’s a reason why we should as well.

strken 28d ago

> This is the conflict. WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office. If you work from home and I work from the office, you're forcing me to collaborate with you using remote tools, which is just remote work with a longer commute. In this sense, (some) WFHers are only happy when they force RTOers into Microsoft Teams. Of course, there's a much better compromise available to us. I could be on an in-office team with others like me, you could be on a WFH team with others like you, and we'd all be happy.

hightrix 27d ago
Many workplaces are global. Even when I’m in the office, I’m still on Teams meetings all day long. Your conclusion is exactly my point. People should work on teams that fit their work habits. Where that falls down is when management hires for WFH but then asks those workers to RTO.

martin- 27d ago

> WFHers are happy without forcing RTOers to work in the same manner. RTOers are only happy when they force WFHers into the office. You're completely leaving out that WFHers are forcing the RTOers to work in a completely different (and in my opinion worse) way to accommodate the WFHers. > WFHers want to be left alone to do their jobs. RTOers need others to be around them to do their job. Or RTOers want to be able to collaborate with their co-workers while WFHers want to sneak away to do laundry and make it impossible to communicate with them in an efficient manner? I don't need them around just to work, I need them around so that I can have a dialogue with them, instead of sending a message that may or may not be answered this week because I have no idea if they are even "at work". I'm exaggerating, but I hope you were too.

hightrix 27d ago
First, RTOers can work with other RTOers, right? Or are you suggesting RTOers can’t do their job unless everyone is in the office? Because that is the exact problem I’m describing. Second, if WFHers aren’t available and responsive, they should be put on a PIP and then let go if they don’t improve. WFH is not an excuse to not work. With my team, everyone responds quickly. If they don’t, they don’t last very long.

bcjdjsndon 27d ago

> WFH people want to do work Debatable. They take issue with getting dressed and acting appropriately in an office, I can't imagine they're particularly hard working people given a commute is a hard no for them. You'll complain you haven't got time to do the work next And if you're job can be done without anyone needing to speak to you, or you to them, it's probably not that important and ripe for AI to take off your hands, so enjoy it while you can autist

albatross79 27d ago
The water cooler hero over here, when's the next pizza lunch boss?
hightrix 27d ago
I’ve witnessed it first hand, WAY more work gets done when people WFH than in the office. The constant stop bus, or coffee breaks, or “let’s walk over to the other building for this meeting” taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time. The WFH team I manage is one of the most capable and hardest working teams I’ve ever been on. You can take that outdated attitude elsewhere, thank you. We collaborate all day long on teams. Various work focused and non work focused chats are constantly happening.
- bcjdjsndon 27d ago
  > taking 10 minutes rather than just opening teams and joining the meeting in time. I love how you couldn't think of an example of work other than a teams meeting lol is that all you do WFH then?
  - albatross79 27d ago
    What are you doing exactly? Building railroads? Tech is meetings and coding.
  - hightrix 16d ago
    Yes. I work in tech and I'm either doing focused work or in meetings. This is the case regardless of in office or at home.