6 ms·

I feel really bad for you. It might actually be wise [1] to create a new, slightly less permissioned license for open source wherein the open is defined as any

I feel really bad for you. It might actually be wise [1] to create a new, slightly less permissioned license for open source wherein the open is defined as anything that isn’t in a kill or surveillance chain or, more broadly, for military use… [1] for the community

deleted 28d ago
[deleted]
stpdnerdism 28d ago
I doubt this is enforceable. Are you going to sue a government secret program because they used some open source code in a way that violates some weird clause?
- gentooflux 28d ago
  Yes, citizens should sue the government when the government takes actions which are grounds for suit. The government sure will come after your money if you do things they say you shouldn't, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
  - well_ackshually 28d ago
    You won't know, they'll say it's for national security so licenses don't matter, and then if you keep going they'll make sure your life is a living hell and your bank accounts closed. I'm begging tech bros to understand that abusive governments _do not care about abusing you_
    - throwaway27448 28d ago
      [flagged]
      - pessimizer 28d ago
        No, treating your illusion of control as a religion is suicidal. You need a theory of power other than complaining to the manager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control
        throwaway27448 28d ago
        Surely you should use every tool at your disposal including the courts?
  - lolgovlol 28d ago
    [flagged]
    - gentooflux 28d ago
      You seem to be suggesting that it's impossible to successfully sue the federal government, which is provably untrue. Yes the government abuses the rights of its citizens and will vehemently defend itself if challenged, but suit is the one of the more potent peaceful means we have to redress grievances with them. As this is a civil discussion, being rude is uncalled for. Maybe go for a walk in nature and get your head back on straight.
      - hparadiz 28d ago
        No one is saying you can't sue the government. You can in fact. What we're saying is you won't get the outcome you desire. The fact that you think they will simply stop production because you sued them is frankly laughably naive. That's not being rude. It's just reality.
- itintheory 28d ago
  On the other hand, it may be worth publicly and unambiguously stating a position even if unenforceable. This seems to be what most modern protest movements are based on. For instance, how many software repos "stand with Ukraine", even though they won't make an impact on frontline military reality?
- deleted 28d ago
  [deleted]
well_ackshually 28d ago
Ah yes, they're carpet bombing people and indiscriminately killing fighters, adults and children, but they're going to be stopped because... the software they use is two clause GPL.
- QuercusMax 28d ago
  You could sue cloud providers who are using your software and selling to the military
nlittlepoole 28d ago
https://firstdonoharm.dev/ https://firstdonoharm.dev/
sheept 28d ago
That wouldn't be open source. OSI includes the clause "No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor"[0] for its definition of open source. Famously, the JSON license[1] has a clause "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil," so the Free Software Foundation considers it nonfree.[2] [0]: https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd [1]: https://www.json.org/license.html https://www.json.org/license.html [2]: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#JSON https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#JSON
- hparadiz 28d ago
  The idea that a defense manufacturer would be stopped by this is too funny. The code won't be auditable by you so how will you know? Secondly even if you did find out the most you'd get is a payout. Thirdly if you believe that missile aren't running GNU/Linux I have a bridge to sell you.
  - inemesitaffia 28d ago
    IBM would be stopped
- Teever 28d ago
  I've contemplated writing an email to RMS asking him how he feels about the use of GNU software in military and surveillance systems and if he could do it over if he would do things differently to alllow users to put a clause in their OSS licenses that forbid such things.
  - m4rtink 28d ago
    IIRC that has been discussed many times & can be definitely found in mailing list archives.
  - wizzwizz4 28d ago
    He's already written that essay. It's more rhetoric than substance, but his position is clear. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freed...
Petersipoi 28d ago
Why do you want the people risking their lives to protect your freedom to have worse artillery? I don't understand this thinking at all. If my country is going to shoot something, I want them to be able to control what actually gets hit. I swear, people take borderline religious stances on things to the point that they no longer make sense.
- nilamo 28d ago
  How do you know for sure that only your team is using the code? Are you ok with "the enemy" using your code to kill your soldiers, or you?
  - maxlybbert 28d ago
    Many wars are simply what you’d expect from violent leaders who realize they can order other people into combat for them. But some wars really are for the greater good. There are definitely militaries that I want to see win, and militaries that I want to see lose. I realize I don’t have any code that would be of any use to any military. If I did, I don’t see how I could write a license to allow the use of my code by only people I agree with.
    - freeone3000 28d ago
      You can write whatever you want in a license, including something as vague as “you can only use this code if I agree with your moral stances”. (For expediency, it might be worth enumerating the cases.) The OSI might disapprove, but you don’t have to listen to them.
- V__ 28d ago
  "protect your freedom" does a lot of work here..
- bluefirebrand 28d ago
  > Why do you want the people risking their lives to protect your freedom to have worse artillery If better artillery is being built on open source tech then everyone has better artillery. Not just the people "protecting you" but also the people trying to kill those people
jacquesm 28d ago
You think they're going to read that license and then go oh, sorry, we won't use this because you told us not to?

deleted 28d ago

[deleted]

stpdnerdism 28d ago

I doubt this is enforceable. Are you going to sue a government secret program because they used some open source code in a way that violates some weird clause?

gentooflux 28d ago
Yes, citizens should sue the government when the government takes actions which are grounds for suit. The government sure will come after your money if you do things they say you shouldn't, and what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
- well_ackshually 28d ago
  You won't know, they'll say it's for national security so licenses don't matter, and then if you keep going they'll make sure your life is a living hell and your bank accounts closed. I'm begging tech bros to understand that abusive governments _do not care about abusing you_
  - throwaway27448 28d ago
    [flagged]
    - pessimizer 28d ago
      No, treating your illusion of control as a religion is suicidal. You need a theory of power other than complaining to the manager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusion_of_control
      - throwaway27448 28d ago
        Surely you should use every tool at your disposal including the courts?
- lolgovlol 28d ago
  [flagged]
  - gentooflux 28d ago
    You seem to be suggesting that it's impossible to successfully sue the federal government, which is provably untrue. Yes the government abuses the rights of its citizens and will vehemently defend itself if challenged, but suit is the one of the more potent peaceful means we have to redress grievances with them. As this is a civil discussion, being rude is uncalled for. Maybe go for a walk in nature and get your head back on straight.
    - hparadiz 28d ago
      No one is saying you can't sue the government. You can in fact. What we're saying is you won't get the outcome you desire. The fact that you think they will simply stop production because you sued them is frankly laughably naive. That's not being rude. It's just reality.
itintheory 28d ago
On the other hand, it may be worth publicly and unambiguously stating a position even if unenforceable. This seems to be what most modern protest movements are based on. For instance, how many software repos "stand with Ukraine", even though they won't make an impact on frontline military reality?
deleted 28d ago
[deleted]

well_ackshually 28d ago

Ah yes, they're carpet bombing people and indiscriminately killing fighters, adults and children, but they're going to be stopped because... the software they use is two clause GPL.

QuercusMax 28d ago
You could sue cloud providers who are using your software and selling to the military

nlittlepoole 28d ago

https://firstdonoharm.dev/ https://firstdonoharm.dev/

sheept 28d ago

That wouldn't be open source. OSI includes the clause "No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor"[0] for its definition of open source. Famously, the JSON license[1] has a clause "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil," so the Free Software Foundation considers it nonfree.[2] [0]: https://opensource.org/osd https://opensource.org/osd [1]: https://www.json.org/license.html https://www.json.org/license.html [2]: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#JSON https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#JSON

hparadiz 28d ago
The idea that a defense manufacturer would be stopped by this is too funny. The code won't be auditable by you so how will you know? Secondly even if you did find out the most you'd get is a payout. Thirdly if you believe that missile aren't running GNU/Linux I have a bridge to sell you.
- inemesitaffia 28d ago
  IBM would be stopped
Teever 28d ago
I've contemplated writing an email to RMS asking him how he feels about the use of GNU software in military and surveillance systems and if he could do it over if he would do things differently to alllow users to put a clause in their OSS licenses that forbid such things.
- m4rtink 28d ago
  IIRC that has been discussed many times & can be definitely found in mailing list archives.
- wizzwizz4 28d ago
  He's already written that essay. It's more rhetoric than substance, but his position is clear. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freed...

Petersipoi 28d ago

Why do you want the people risking their lives to protect your freedom to have worse artillery? I don't understand this thinking at all. If my country is going to shoot something, I want them to be able to control what actually gets hit. I swear, people take borderline religious stances on things to the point that they no longer make sense.

nilamo 28d ago
How do you know for sure that only your team is using the code? Are you ok with "the enemy" using your code to kill your soldiers, or you?
- maxlybbert 28d ago
  Many wars are simply what you’d expect from violent leaders who realize they can order other people into combat for them. But some wars really are for the greater good. There are definitely militaries that I want to see win, and militaries that I want to see lose. I realize I don’t have any code that would be of any use to any military. If I did, I don’t see how I could write a license to allow the use of my code by only people I agree with.
  - freeone3000 28d ago
    You can write whatever you want in a license, including something as vague as “you can only use this code if I agree with your moral stances”. (For expediency, it might be worth enumerating the cases.) The OSI might disapprove, but you don’t have to listen to them.
V__ 28d ago
"protect your freedom" does a lot of work here..
bluefirebrand 28d ago
> Why do you want the people risking their lives to protect your freedom to have worse artillery If better artillery is being built on open source tech then everyone has better artillery. Not just the people "protecting you" but also the people trying to kill those people

jacquesm 28d ago

You think they're going to read that license and then go oh, sorry, we won't use this because you told us not to?