7 ms·

> I don't think even I would think surrender, in those circumstances, makes a great deal of sense. Why not? That's what typically happens when one side loses a

> I don't think even I would think surrender, in those circumstances, makes a great deal of sense. Why not? That's what typically happens when one side loses a war, I'm not sure how prolonging the conflict is helpful. > And I'm an atheist. So am I. > I'm also British. Funny enough I am as well(in addition to a couple others). History is full of people losing their homes and becoming refugees like some of my ancestors did, that's often much better than the alternative of staying to fight and die. I am certainly not trying to get their homes back as that is long settled history.

watutalkinbout 1mo ago
I'm curious. Was Britain at war with Northern Ireland? I've come to believe that it's pretty impossible to understand Israel-Palestine without the lens of religion.
- jameshilliard 1mo ago
  > Was Britain at war with Northern Ireland? Not formally. > I've come to believe that it's pretty impossible to understand Israel-Palestine without the lens of religion. From my understanding according to common Islamic teachings non-Muslims are supposed to be Dhimmi's[0](i.e. second class citizens) and be ruled over by Muslim's. So I think this is probably the source of a lot of the issues with the Israel-Palestine conflict, although there are other factors in play as well. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
  - watutalkinbout 29d ago
    "Not formally" rather implies you think it was. Northern Ireland was/is part of the UK, so civil war I could probably agree with. The reason I mentioned religion was nothing to do with the requirements it places on how things should happen, but rather about the entitlement and infallibility that a belief that god has decreed something can grant people's mindset and outlook.
    - jameshilliard 29d ago
      > "Not formally" rather implies you think it was. I mean, it comes down somewhat to definitions of war I guess. > Northern Ireland was/is part of the UK, so civil war I could probably agree with. Maybe an irregular civil war or something like that? Maybe a low level insurgency? There's a few ways to describe that conflict. I probably should know more about the troubles since I lived in southern Ireland for 3 semesters of college, but that was over 10 years ago. > The reason I mentioned religion was nothing to do with the requirements it places on how things should happen, but rather about the entitlement and infallibility that a belief that god has decreed something can grant people's mindset and outlook. Sure, religion does make solving these problems more difficult. I know at least Israeli Jews are often relatively secular statistically at least, although there are those that are more religious as well(which tend to cause more issues). Different religions have different doctrines as well which play into the conflict in various ways. All religions will generally have problematic teachings but some will cause a lot more real world issues than others, Islamic teachings around Jihad and Martyrdom tend to be especially problematic. When Israelis see they are surrounded by groups that openly call for their destruction then it's not surprising that Israelis believe those threats due to the history of those groups acting on those threats. Then there's the issue that historically whenever Israel would move in the direction of peace with the Palestinians things would backfire(i.e. Second Intifada). I'm not really sure what the best solution is but I think some Palestinian de-radicalization will be a prerequisite, but I also don't really know how that could be done in practice. > And I'm an atheist. If you had to choose somewhere in the middle east to live where would it be? I presume it would be Israel as that's basically the only country in the middle east where being an atheist is acceptable in the society.
      - watutalkinbout 28d ago
        >some Palestinian de-radicalization will be a prerequisite I don't think there is a chance in hell of that working unless Israeli deradicalisation happens first. >If you had to choose somewhere in the middle east to live where would it be? My ethics aren't fungible based on the tribe someone belongs to...

watutalkinbout 1mo ago

I'm curious. Was Britain at war with Northern Ireland? I've come to believe that it's pretty impossible to understand Israel-Palestine without the lens of religion.

jameshilliard 1mo ago
> Was Britain at war with Northern Ireland? Not formally. > I've come to believe that it's pretty impossible to understand Israel-Palestine without the lens of religion. From my understanding according to common Islamic teachings non-Muslims are supposed to be Dhimmi's[0](i.e. second class citizens) and be ruled over by Muslim's. So I think this is probably the source of a lot of the issues with the Israel-Palestine conflict, although there are other factors in play as well. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi
- watutalkinbout 29d ago
  "Not formally" rather implies you think it was. Northern Ireland was/is part of the UK, so civil war I could probably agree with. The reason I mentioned religion was nothing to do with the requirements it places on how things should happen, but rather about the entitlement and infallibility that a belief that god has decreed something can grant people's mindset and outlook.
  - jameshilliard 29d ago
    > "Not formally" rather implies you think it was. I mean, it comes down somewhat to definitions of war I guess. > Northern Ireland was/is part of the UK, so civil war I could probably agree with. Maybe an irregular civil war or something like that? Maybe a low level insurgency? There's a few ways to describe that conflict. I probably should know more about the troubles since I lived in southern Ireland for 3 semesters of college, but that was over 10 years ago. > The reason I mentioned religion was nothing to do with the requirements it places on how things should happen, but rather about the entitlement and infallibility that a belief that god has decreed something can grant people's mindset and outlook. Sure, religion does make solving these problems more difficult. I know at least Israeli Jews are often relatively secular statistically at least, although there are those that are more religious as well(which tend to cause more issues). Different religions have different doctrines as well which play into the conflict in various ways. All religions will generally have problematic teachings but some will cause a lot more real world issues than others, Islamic teachings around Jihad and Martyrdom tend to be especially problematic. When Israelis see they are surrounded by groups that openly call for their destruction then it's not surprising that Israelis believe those threats due to the history of those groups acting on those threats. Then there's the issue that historically whenever Israel would move in the direction of peace with the Palestinians things would backfire(i.e. Second Intifada). I'm not really sure what the best solution is but I think some Palestinian de-radicalization will be a prerequisite, but I also don't really know how that could be done in practice. > And I'm an atheist. If you had to choose somewhere in the middle east to live where would it be? I presume it would be Israel as that's basically the only country in the middle east where being an atheist is acceptable in the society.
    - watutalkinbout 28d ago
      >some Palestinian de-radicalization will be a prerequisite I don't think there is a chance in hell of that working unless Israeli deradicalisation happens first. >If you had to choose somewhere in the middle east to live where would it be? My ethics aren't fungible based on the tribe someone belongs to...