6 ms·

If you think having a particular ethnicity in charge is equivalent to endorsing genocide, you miiiiiight be a little bit racist.

jameshilliard 1mo ago
> If you think having a particular ethnicity in charge is equivalent to endorsing genocide, you miiiiiight be a little bit racist. The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza(Hamas) has for a long time quite openly advocated for effectively genocide Jews/Israeli's, it's not racist to simply believe that Hamas is telling the truth in regards to what their end goals are.
- dragonwriter 1mo ago
  > The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed.
  - jameshilliard 1mo ago
    > There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. The election that brought Hamas to power in Gaza was widely considered to be free and fair.[0] > Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed. And yet polling indicates if another vote was held Hamas would likely still win, in both Gaza and the West Bank, so it's essentially a moot point. It's not just Israel that has blocked elections, Fatah has also not wanted elections because they know they would lose. The problem is that Palestinians have in reality largely supported extremists far more than moderates, that may change but reducing Palestinian support for extremism is ultimately what needs to change for there to be a chance at having some long term peace agreement. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election#Independent_Observer_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
    - watutalkinbout 29d ago
      A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist.
      - jameshilliard 29d ago
        > A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist. The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were not going around killing German civilians.
        watutalkinbout 29d ago
        Warsaw Ghetto was sealed off in November 1940 by a wall more than 10 feet high, with barbed wire and guarded gates. German authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw. Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes.
        jameshilliard 29d ago
        > Warsaw Ghetto was sealed off in November 1940 by a wall more than 10 feet high, with barbed wire and guarded gates. France was sealed off in 1938 by a line of concrete fortifications, obstacles and weapon installations called the Maginot Line. > German authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw. French authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between Germany and the rest of France. > Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes. Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes.
        watutalkinbout 29d ago
        I'm pretty sure French guards didn't prevent movement between Germany and the rest of France.
        jameshilliard 29d ago
- watutalkinbout 29d ago
  I'm not sure what meaning you can ascribe to this kind of statement, because whilst it is factually true in isolation, it also omits so much information it's almost meaningless. There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. History rhymes - I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them?
  - jameshilliard 29d ago
    > There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. Israel does have some problems with extremists getting elected but that's partially due to the proportional representation system making it easier for extremists to get elected without widespread support from the population. > I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them? Were the Jews in the Polish Ghetto terrorizing/murdering random German civilians? I'm sure they had a very negative view of the Nazi's but it's not a particularly comparable situation as the Jews were being exterminated regardless of their actions.
    - watutalkinbout 29d ago
      Gazans are being exterminated regardless of their actions. The Warsaw ghettos didn't exist for very long. People are people, treat them the same way and you'll probably get similar results. Of course, in this case both sides have magical thinking involved that gives them a divine blessing, so that changes things somewhat and makes it harder to reason with them. Obviously the parallel I've drawn is extremely provocative. The Nazis started with a belief of dehumanism and acted on it. In the case of Israelis and Palestinians it's just the direction of travel over decades, but they look the same in many ways for a reason.
      - jameshilliard 29d ago
frollogaston 29d ago
What do you think would happen in that scenario, if not at least the inverse direction of what's happening now?

jameshilliard 1mo ago

> If you think having a particular ethnicity in charge is equivalent to endorsing genocide, you miiiiiight be a little bit racist. The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza(Hamas) has for a long time quite openly advocated for effectively genocide Jews/Israeli's, it's not racist to simply believe that Hamas is telling the truth in regards to what their end goals are.

dragonwriter 1mo ago
> The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed.
- jameshilliard 1mo ago
  > There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. The election that brought Hamas to power in Gaza was widely considered to be free and fair.[0] > Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed. And yet polling indicates if another vote was held Hamas would likely still win, in both Gaza and the West Bank, so it's essentially a moot point. It's not just Israel that has blocked elections, Fatah has also not wanted elections because they know they would lose. The problem is that Palestinians have in reality largely supported extremists far more than moderates, that may change but reducing Palestinian support for extremism is ultimately what needs to change for there to be a chance at having some long term peace agreement. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election#Independent_Observer_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
  - watutalkinbout 29d ago
    A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist.
    - jameshilliard 29d ago
      > A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist. The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were not going around killing German civilians.
      - watutalkinbout 29d ago
        Warsaw Ghetto was sealed off in November 1940 by a wall more than 10 feet high, with barbed wire and guarded gates. German authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw. Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes.
        jameshilliard 29d ago
        > Warsaw Ghetto was sealed off in November 1940 by a wall more than 10 feet high, with barbed wire and guarded gates. France was sealed off in 1938 by a line of concrete fortifications, obstacles and weapon installations called the Maginot Line. > German authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw. French authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between Germany and the rest of France. > Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes. Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes.
        watutalkinbout 29d ago
        I'm pretty sure French guards didn't prevent movement between Germany and the rest of France.
        jameshilliard 29d ago
watutalkinbout 29d ago
I'm not sure what meaning you can ascribe to this kind of statement, because whilst it is factually true in isolation, it also omits so much information it's almost meaningless. There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. History rhymes - I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them?
- jameshilliard 29d ago
  > There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. Israel does have some problems with extremists getting elected but that's partially due to the proportional representation system making it easier for extremists to get elected without widespread support from the population. > I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them? Were the Jews in the Polish Ghetto terrorizing/murdering random German civilians? I'm sure they had a very negative view of the Nazi's but it's not a particularly comparable situation as the Jews were being exterminated regardless of their actions.
  - watutalkinbout 29d ago
    Gazans are being exterminated regardless of their actions. The Warsaw ghettos didn't exist for very long. People are people, treat them the same way and you'll probably get similar results. Of course, in this case both sides have magical thinking involved that gives them a divine blessing, so that changes things somewhat and makes it harder to reason with them. Obviously the parallel I've drawn is extremely provocative. The Nazis started with a belief of dehumanism and acted on it. In the case of Israelis and Palestinians it's just the direction of travel over decades, but they look the same in many ways for a reason.
    - jameshilliard 29d ago

frollogaston 29d ago

What do you think would happen in that scenario, if not at least the inverse direction of what's happening now?