5 ms·

I would add than SSE1 and SSE2 are now required parts of AMD64 instruction set. All 64-bit PC processors are required to support them both. For that reason, mod

I would add than SSE1 and SSE2 are now required parts of AMD64 instruction set. All 64-bit PC processors are required to support them both. For that reason, modern compilers are ignoring x87 FPU when building 64-bit binaries. Instead, they compile all float and double arithmetic into SSE1 and SSE2 instructions, respectively.

grg0 1mo ago
Which is not to say that they are necessarily auto-vectorizing. You know wassup when you see vaddsd instead of vaddpd. And ideally you'd use AVX-512 to saturate a modern cache line if you can afford to drop support for the older devices.
- spider-mario 1mo ago
  Or runtime CPU detection and dispatch to support both.
- hbogert 1mo ago
  older devices, is rather vague, this means intel client chips even as late as panther lake do not support avx512 or avx10
icelusxl 1mo ago
Compilers like GCC and Clang treat C's "long double" type by default as 80-bit wide and result in x87 generated code. This can be overridden to use either 64-bit or 128-bit floating point values.
theandrewbailey 1mo ago
Take a look at the micro-architecture levels. x86-64-v1 contains all the instructions that the original AMD64 and compatible Intel CPUs supported. v2 is all the SSE levels, v3 is AVX and AVX2, v4 is AVX-512. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Microarchitecture_levels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Microarchitecture_level...
- chasil 1mo ago
  The wiki says: "Additional XMM (SSE) registers: Similarly, the number of 128-bit XMM registers (used for Streaming SIMD instructions) is also increased from 8 to 16... "The original AMD64 architecture adopted Intel's SSE and SSE2 as core instructions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64 This wansn't v2?
  - VorpalWay 1mo ago
    Not sure what your question is. I dont see any contradiction with the parent comment. SSE went to version 4.2 (it gets complicated in the numbering and even naming). Only 1 and 2 were included in the base 64-bit ISA.
  - jcranmer 1mo ago
    x86-64 mandates SSE2 as a minimum requirement because it uses the SSE registers in the ABI for implementing float (which requires SSE) and double (which requires SSE2) arithmetic. (The x87 unit, which is what the 32-bit x86 ABI uses, can only do extended-precision arithmetic, which causes a whole heap of problems). Because it's so thoroughly integrated in the ABI, v1 has to have a min-SSE2 requirement. Subsequently, there were additional instructions added in SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1 and SSE4.2, which are all incorporated into the v2 ISA level (along with a few other instructions). Then all of these instructions were given 256-bit variants in AVX, and AVX2 adds some more vector instructions; these are incorporated into the v3 ISA level. And then along comes AVX-512 and naming just becomes a podge at that point...
wbl 1mo ago
Extended double has some niche and quite useful for its application properties. You can for instance simulate 128 bit floats more easily with it.
dfox 1mo ago
They were always required. IIRC early AMD64 CPUs did not support x87 instructions in long mode at all (causing #UD), and that support was Intel's extension in first EM64T CPUs.
- 45t345tg35 1mo ago
  Please refrain from making things up -- Long Mode has always supported x87. You may be mis-remembering LAHF/SAHF.
  - balou23 1mo ago
    LAHF and SAHF are an interesting rabbit hole themselves. If you ever dug into x86 assembler programming... at first they make no sense at all. They only save/restore a tiny part of the available flag registers. The mnemonics themselves make little sense - load/store are not really used in any other base x86 mnemonics (unlike e.g. 6502 mnemonics, which use LD?/ST? instead of MOV like x86). It only clicked when I read an Intel document about porting assembler code from the 8080 to the 8086. LAHF/SAHF are basically convenience instructions to make porting easier. Many 8080 instructions did not alter the flags, unlike their 8086 counterparts. Substituting an `INX` instruction with `LAHF; INC; SAHF` made it possible to mechanically translate assembler source code. And yeah, 8080 mnemonics had LDA and STA like the 6502...
whizzter 28d ago
Another large part of using SSE for floating point arithmetic today is that while the floating point stack was very good for code-density (I still use older compilers for size-optimized C code for demoscene intros), it was also quite painful in being stateful. This is a large part of why "floating point to integer conversion is slow" cargo culting came from (probably disappeared today but was often seen back in the day). Many x86 standard libraries emitted code that first set the floating point rounding mode before the storing conversion, you could use a /QIfist compiler option on MSVC to omit that but if you were unlucky to call some code that fiddled with the rounding mode your code would become unreliable (iirc unfortunally that did include some old D3D or OGL version). With SSE iirc it's separate instructions for different rounding instead of a FPU mode.

grg0 1mo ago

Which is not to say that they are necessarily auto-vectorizing. You know wassup when you see vaddsd instead of vaddpd. And ideally you'd use AVX-512 to saturate a modern cache line if you can afford to drop support for the older devices.

spider-mario 1mo ago
Or runtime CPU detection and dispatch to support both.
hbogert 1mo ago
older devices, is rather vague, this means intel client chips even as late as panther lake do not support avx512 or avx10

icelusxl 1mo ago

Compilers like GCC and Clang treat C's "long double" type by default as 80-bit wide and result in x87 generated code. This can be overridden to use either 64-bit or 128-bit floating point values.

theandrewbailey 1mo ago

Take a look at the micro-architecture levels. x86-64-v1 contains all the instructions that the original AMD64 and compatible Intel CPUs supported. v2 is all the SSE levels, v3 is AVX and AVX2, v4 is AVX-512. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Microarchitecture_levels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Microarchitecture_level...

chasil 1mo ago
The wiki says: "Additional XMM (SSE) registers: Similarly, the number of 128-bit XMM registers (used for Streaming SIMD instructions) is also increased from 8 to 16... "The original AMD64 architecture adopted Intel's SSE and SSE2 as core instructions." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64 This wansn't v2?
- VorpalWay 1mo ago
  Not sure what your question is. I dont see any contradiction with the parent comment. SSE went to version 4.2 (it gets complicated in the numbering and even naming). Only 1 and 2 were included in the base 64-bit ISA.
- jcranmer 1mo ago
  x86-64 mandates SSE2 as a minimum requirement because it uses the SSE registers in the ABI for implementing float (which requires SSE) and double (which requires SSE2) arithmetic. (The x87 unit, which is what the 32-bit x86 ABI uses, can only do extended-precision arithmetic, which causes a whole heap of problems). Because it's so thoroughly integrated in the ABI, v1 has to have a min-SSE2 requirement. Subsequently, there were additional instructions added in SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4.1 and SSE4.2, which are all incorporated into the v2 ISA level (along with a few other instructions). Then all of these instructions were given 256-bit variants in AVX, and AVX2 adds some more vector instructions; these are incorporated into the v3 ISA level. And then along comes AVX-512 and naming just becomes a podge at that point...

wbl 1mo ago

Extended double has some niche and quite useful for its application properties. You can for instance simulate 128 bit floats more easily with it.

dfox 1mo ago

They were always required. IIRC early AMD64 CPUs did not support x87 instructions in long mode at all (causing #UD), and that support was Intel's extension in first EM64T CPUs.

45t345tg35 1mo ago
Please refrain from making things up -- Long Mode has always supported x87. You may be mis-remembering LAHF/SAHF.
- balou23 1mo ago
  LAHF and SAHF are an interesting rabbit hole themselves. If you ever dug into x86 assembler programming... at first they make no sense at all. They only save/restore a tiny part of the available flag registers. The mnemonics themselves make little sense - load/store are not really used in any other base x86 mnemonics (unlike e.g. 6502 mnemonics, which use LD?/ST? instead of MOV like x86). It only clicked when I read an Intel document about porting assembler code from the 8080 to the 8086. LAHF/SAHF are basically convenience instructions to make porting easier. Many 8080 instructions did not alter the flags, unlike their 8086 counterparts. Substituting an `INX` instruction with `LAHF; INC; SAHF` made it possible to mechanically translate assembler source code. And yeah, 8080 mnemonics had LDA and STA like the 6502...

whizzter 28d ago

Another large part of using SSE for floating point arithmetic today is that while the floating point stack was very good for code-density (I still use older compilers for size-optimized C code for demoscene intros), it was also quite painful in being stateful. This is a large part of why "floating point to integer conversion is slow" cargo culting came from (probably disappeared today but was often seen back in the day). Many x86 standard libraries emitted code that first set the floating point rounding mode before the storing conversion, you could use a /QIfist compiler option on MSVC to omit that but if you were unlucky to call some code that fiddled with the rounding mode your code would become unreliable (iirc unfortunally that did include some old D3D or OGL version). With SSE iirc it's separate instructions for different rounding instead of a FPU mode.