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I mean, it's a collective action problem. Individual consumption of normal people is a huge contributor to global energy demands / pollution / etc. You don't ha

by qbit42 1mo ago

I mean, it's a collective action problem. Individual consumption of normal people is a huge contributor to global energy demands / pollution / etc. You don't have to change your behavior but if no one does in the coming decades then we're pretty fucked. Not to let the 1% off the hook. Por que no los dos

surgical_fire 1mo ago
You cannot solve societal problems with individual actions. It's about time to cut the crap that each person can make a difference while governments keep subsidizing all sorts of activities that damage the environment. I will vote for forbidding beef, but will keep eating it until it is forbidden.
- qbit42 1mo ago
  I somewhat agree, and I have not stopped eating beef entirely. I think that forbidding is overkill but agree that lots of related subsidies should be eliminated (honestly, if meat were just priced w/o current subsidies, we'd be in far better shape). But you have to have some public consensus or the government will never implement such changes due to their unpopularity. This is why I think promoting some reduction in individual meat consumption is still valuable - it is good for average people to reflect on their consumption or they will vote out anyone who attempts to change it. I don't think that the focus should be on individual blame (even just for the reason that this is politically nonviable). But you at least need to amass some collective awareness.
  - surgical_fire 1mo ago
    I love beef. I absolutely adore cheese, and I would be unfathomably sad to never again taste a nice piece of Gorgonzola. But I know that the meat and dairy industry are hellish for the environment. You don't need to win me in that argument, I accepted that already. But that's the catch - either we are all in this together, or we will burn in this oven-earth of our making. There's no between. I am not becoming vegan just to die scorched anyway because meat and dairy were still subsidized and consumed. Governments are surprisingly good to set proper incentives when they want. It could make beef and dairy economically ruinous with taxes instead of forbidding. Consumption would lower dramatically the moment a striploin beef is costing 30 bucks. If society needs several environmental catastrophes to wake up, then I can only hope I see the other side of it.
    - dgellow 1mo ago
      You don’t have to become vegan. Reduce your meat consumption, that’s it. There is nothing crazy about this

by qbit42 1mo ago

surgical_fire 1mo ago

You cannot solve societal problems with individual actions. It's about time to cut the crap that each person can make a difference while governments keep subsidizing all sorts of activities that damage the environment. I will vote for forbidding beef, but will keep eating it until it is forbidden.

qbit42 1mo ago
I somewhat agree, and I have not stopped eating beef entirely. I think that forbidding is overkill but agree that lots of related subsidies should be eliminated (honestly, if meat were just priced w/o current subsidies, we'd be in far better shape). But you have to have some public consensus or the government will never implement such changes due to their unpopularity. This is why I think promoting some reduction in individual meat consumption is still valuable - it is good for average people to reflect on their consumption or they will vote out anyone who attempts to change it. I don't think that the focus should be on individual blame (even just for the reason that this is politically nonviable). But you at least need to amass some collective awareness.
- surgical_fire 1mo ago
  I love beef. I absolutely adore cheese, and I would be unfathomably sad to never again taste a nice piece of Gorgonzola. But I know that the meat and dairy industry are hellish for the environment. You don't need to win me in that argument, I accepted that already. But that's the catch - either we are all in this together, or we will burn in this oven-earth of our making. There's no between. I am not becoming vegan just to die scorched anyway because meat and dairy were still subsidized and consumed. Governments are surprisingly good to set proper incentives when they want. It could make beef and dairy economically ruinous with taxes instead of forbidding. Consumption would lower dramatically the moment a striploin beef is costing 30 bucks. If society needs several environmental catastrophes to wake up, then I can only hope I see the other side of it.
  - dgellow 1mo ago
    You don’t have to become vegan. Reduce your meat consumption, that’s it. There is nothing crazy about this