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I am not asking about capability. Aren't there reasons to avoid the scrutiny that might accompany bypassing the Great Firewall? Doesn't this create a chilling e

I am not asking about capability. Aren't there reasons to avoid the scrutiny that might accompany bypassing the Great Firewall? Doesn't this create a chilling effect? Or are you claiming that it has zero effect and citizens of China have zero concerns about using websites and speaking freely?

Sha1rholder 1mo ago
> Aren't there reasons to avoid the scrutiny that might accompany bypassing the Great Firewall? One of the reasons to bypass GFW is to avoid scrutiny. > Doesn't this create a chilling effect? It doesn't. > Or are you claiming that it has zero effect and citizens of China have zero concerns about using websites and speaking freely? Not “zero”, maybe like “0.01”? Better use an anonymous account if you want to criticize on gov.
- mcculley 1mo ago
  This has not been my experience working with Chinese citizens. They are mostly very aware that they cannot speak freely.
  - Sha1rholder 1mo ago
    > They are mostly very aware that they cannot speak freely. That's correct, and as I said that's one of the reasons Chinese people bypass GFW. The last paragraph in my previous comment may not have been clear enough. What I meant was that *after bypassing GFW*, you generally have minimal concern, not *before bypassing GFW*
    - mcculley 1mo ago
      You seem to believe that every potential interlocutor is bypassing the firewall. I know that many are not, because they are afraid of being caught.
    - udntknow 25d ago
      As a Chinese person, I acknowledge that there are restrictions on what can be said, but every country has its own limitations, doesn’t it? Overall, I don’t believe that freedom of speech is heavily restricted in China. Politics is quite distant from the lives of ordinary people, isn’t it?
      - mcculley 24d ago
        No. For example, the U.S. has many problems and I would never say it is ideal, but I can openly disagree with the President or the majority party. My understanding is that this is not as easy for citizens of China inside China. Can you openly discuss the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests?
  - powerapple 1mo ago
    I have been on Douyin a lot, there is a lot chat rooms for people to debate politics, so it is a 50/50 divide for opinions (for and against). Many of them will say 'China sucks, and US rules'. People learn a way to speak avoiding keywords, if you are not careful, you get kicked out of the chat. Many of them you can tell are against the government, but these are not ordinary people, they probably don't work, and spending most of their time online talking about politics.

Sha1rholder 1mo ago

> Aren't there reasons to avoid the scrutiny that might accompany bypassing the Great Firewall? One of the reasons to bypass GFW is to avoid scrutiny. > Doesn't this create a chilling effect? It doesn't. > Or are you claiming that it has zero effect and citizens of China have zero concerns about using websites and speaking freely? Not “zero”, maybe like “0.01”? Better use an anonymous account if you want to criticize on gov.

mcculley 1mo ago
This has not been my experience working with Chinese citizens. They are mostly very aware that they cannot speak freely.
- Sha1rholder 1mo ago
  > They are mostly very aware that they cannot speak freely. That's correct, and as I said that's one of the reasons Chinese people bypass GFW. The last paragraph in my previous comment may not have been clear enough. What I meant was that *after bypassing GFW*, you generally have minimal concern, not *before bypassing GFW*
  - mcculley 1mo ago
    You seem to believe that every potential interlocutor is bypassing the firewall. I know that many are not, because they are afraid of being caught.
  - udntknow 25d ago
    As a Chinese person, I acknowledge that there are restrictions on what can be said, but every country has its own limitations, doesn’t it? Overall, I don’t believe that freedom of speech is heavily restricted in China. Politics is quite distant from the lives of ordinary people, isn’t it?
    - mcculley 24d ago
      No. For example, the U.S. has many problems and I would never say it is ideal, but I can openly disagree with the President or the majority party. My understanding is that this is not as easy for citizens of China inside China. Can you openly discuss the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests?
- powerapple 1mo ago
  I have been on Douyin a lot, there is a lot chat rooms for people to debate politics, so it is a 50/50 divide for opinions (for and against). Many of them will say 'China sucks, and US rules'. People learn a way to speak avoiding keywords, if you are not careful, you get kicked out of the chat. Many of them you can tell are against the government, but these are not ordinary people, they probably don't work, and spending most of their time online talking about politics.