5 ms·

Societies get to decide on their "traditions" and they need not be efficient - the "new world" has oddities there, too. (Not sure how guilds in cities relate to

Societies get to decide on their "traditions" and they need not be efficient - the "new world" has oddities there, too. (Not sure how guilds in cities relate to kings if we are talking about Handwerk, though.) If people were dead set against things like Meisterzwang in some areas it would not exist (and it has indeed been removed in some areas). It isn't regulatory capture of local government: local governments want business to stick around and having demonstrated sticking around is a signal there. What you don't want is someone coming in, collecting subsidies in varies ways to then leave quickly again.

gyulai 1mo ago
> If people were dead set against things like Meisterzwang in some areas it would not exist I'll give you an example: When I went to a copy shop in Austria to have my thesis bound, the attendant said they were only allowed to do it up to 200 pages. Since my thesis had 210 pages it didn't fall under some exemption, and I had to go to a master bookbinder. The result is: Disgruntled consumer forced by law to pay more. Your "in a democratic society, if it wasn't wanted, it wouldn't exist" is a bit reductionist. It's a very technical / niche kind of law making and is rarely the subject of public debate or decisive in an election. So it's easier for the CDU (in Germany) or the ÖVP (in Austria), to just give these people what they ask for and collect donations from them, than to stop and think about what's good for the economy and for consumers. All the while these same sectors that enjoy Meisterzwang (the need to be a master craftsman, to practice self-employed) are the ones shouting Fachkräftemangel, Fachkräftemangel (labour shortage, labour shortage) into every microphone that anyone ever puts in their face. And that's another attempt to co-opt the government for their cause, which is to bend the supply-demand balance in their favour, specifically as it regards to the job market for people who will accept low wages, while keeping out anyone who might compete with them on a self-employed basis thus safeguarding their respective local monopoly/oligopoly/cartel. The net result is: no plumber, when you need one. I'm a mid-career professional, researching opportunities to make a career change right now, in my forties. In Germany, bookbinding is one of the very few things I might actually be allowed to do. In Austria, it would mean I'd have to apprentice for next-to-no salary for 3 years with a master bookbinder, before I get to set up shop, which, at age 42 and with a family to take care of, I'm just not going to do. Anyone who actually cares about preserving bookbinding as a craft in Austria should be opposed to this nonsense, because it's making it impossible/uneconomical for most people who might like to practice the craft to actually do so. The net result is: the craft of bookbinding dies. ...and yet the spin in PBS or ARTE style romanticized documentaries is: "look at these people and their proud traditions! ...shouldn't that be the envy of all of us office dwellers." > collecting subsidies In Germany, except for the very largest cities, municipalities don't do subsidies. Their political currency is not money but re-zoning, parking spots, favourable placements of kids in those public schools which happen to be marginally better than the other ones, that kind of thing. It's precisely the kind of currency that doesn't allow for the kind of opportunism you suggest.
- RandomLensman 1mo ago
  Can't speak to your issue in Austria with over 200 pages. Never encountered that in Germany. Germany has removed Meisterzwang for some areas - so there is that. If people want to regulate certain things they can, even if you don't like it - welcome to society. When you look at some old craft products (like an old cathedral, for example) do you think it wrong to admire the craft, skill, and learning that went into it? I meant subsidies in the broadest way,which for me includes re-zoning. Don't understand why that doesn't allow for what I wrote.
  - gyulai 1mo ago
    > If people want to regulate certain things they can, even if you don't like it - welcome to society. ...that could be a response to anyone taking a political stance in favour of changing anything and, besides being rude, adds nothing of substance.
    - RandomLensman 1mo ago
      Sorry, wasn't meant to be rude - maybe I missed it, but how are you pursuing that political stance actively rather than here writing about what you dislike about it? For example, are you active in a political party or business association pushing your agenda? Have you spoken or written to your representatives? Some local political activities unrelated to party politics? Other activities such as helping people draft new policies?

gyulai 1mo ago

> If people were dead set against things like Meisterzwang in some areas it would not exist I'll give you an example: When I went to a copy shop in Austria to have my thesis bound, the attendant said they were only allowed to do it up to 200 pages. Since my thesis had 210 pages it didn't fall under some exemption, and I had to go to a master bookbinder. The result is: Disgruntled consumer forced by law to pay more. Your "in a democratic society, if it wasn't wanted, it wouldn't exist" is a bit reductionist. It's a very technical / niche kind of law making and is rarely the subject of public debate or decisive in an election. So it's easier for the CDU (in Germany) or the ÖVP (in Austria), to just give these people what they ask for and collect donations from them, than to stop and think about what's good for the economy and for consumers. All the while these same sectors that enjoy Meisterzwang (the need to be a master craftsman, to practice self-employed) are the ones shouting Fachkräftemangel, Fachkräftemangel (labour shortage, labour shortage) into every microphone that anyone ever puts in their face. And that's another attempt to co-opt the government for their cause, which is to bend the supply-demand balance in their favour, specifically as it regards to the job market for people who will accept low wages, while keeping out anyone who might compete with them on a self-employed basis thus safeguarding their respective local monopoly/oligopoly/cartel. The net result is: no plumber, when you need one. I'm a mid-career professional, researching opportunities to make a career change right now, in my forties. In Germany, bookbinding is one of the very few things I might actually be allowed to do. In Austria, it would mean I'd have to apprentice for next-to-no salary for 3 years with a master bookbinder, before I get to set up shop, which, at age 42 and with a family to take care of, I'm just not going to do. Anyone who actually cares about preserving bookbinding as a craft in Austria should be opposed to this nonsense, because it's making it impossible/uneconomical for most people who might like to practice the craft to actually do so. The net result is: the craft of bookbinding dies. ...and yet the spin in PBS or ARTE style romanticized documentaries is: "look at these people and their proud traditions! ...shouldn't that be the envy of all of us office dwellers." > collecting subsidies In Germany, except for the very largest cities, municipalities don't do subsidies. Their political currency is not money but re-zoning, parking spots, favourable placements of kids in those public schools which happen to be marginally better than the other ones, that kind of thing. It's precisely the kind of currency that doesn't allow for the kind of opportunism you suggest.

RandomLensman 1mo ago
Can't speak to your issue in Austria with over 200 pages. Never encountered that in Germany. Germany has removed Meisterzwang for some areas - so there is that. If people want to regulate certain things they can, even if you don't like it - welcome to society. When you look at some old craft products (like an old cathedral, for example) do you think it wrong to admire the craft, skill, and learning that went into it? I meant subsidies in the broadest way,which for me includes re-zoning. Don't understand why that doesn't allow for what I wrote.
- gyulai 1mo ago
  > If people want to regulate certain things they can, even if you don't like it - welcome to society. ...that could be a response to anyone taking a political stance in favour of changing anything and, besides being rude, adds nothing of substance.
  - RandomLensman 1mo ago
    Sorry, wasn't meant to be rude - maybe I missed it, but how are you pursuing that political stance actively rather than here writing about what you dislike about it? For example, are you active in a political party or business association pushing your agenda? Have you spoken or written to your representatives? Some local political activities unrelated to party politics? Other activities such as helping people draft new policies?