7 ms·

You are calling a Linux (sorry, GNU/Linux) killer small silly stuff?

by oytis 1mo ago

maplant 1mo ago
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as GNU/Linux, is in fact, just Linux.
- inigyou 1mo ago
  Yeah GNU hasn't really been involved for a long time. It's Mozilla/Linux in reality. Not to mention the totally GNU-free distributions, like Alpine.
  - ColdStream 1mo ago
    The efforts people will go to in order to avoid GPL3. Makes you wonder why?
    - inigyou 1mo ago
      Because large corporations want to take without giving.
      - ColdStream 1mo ago
        Yep, look at Apples 12 year journey of rebuilding everything that was moved up to GPL3.
  - kristopolous 1mo ago
    If you read the historical archives, Gnu was kinda late in the game with Linux. They were distributing the Joliets 386-BSD and NetBSD and had some drama with trying to do Linux. Debian is a historical spinoff of this. I gave a conference talk about this about 4 years ago. There may be slight errors in my recollection
    - yjftsjthsd-h 1mo ago
      Where would someone read more about that history? Sounds up my alley:)
- pessimizer 1mo ago
  No, what they're referring to as a GNU/Linux is in fact GNU Hurd.
- IsTom 1mo ago
  Are you saying that Hurd will also kill Google/Linux?
  - maplant 1mo ago
    What I'm saying is that Hurd is just a kernel in the same way that Linux is also just a kernel
    - xelxebar 1mo ago
      Hurd specifically includes a userspace. Its kernel is Mach.
    - darksaints 1mo ago
      The snark artist in me would say that Linux is a kernel plus tens of millions of lines of code that absolutely should not be in the kernel but are.
      - antonvs 1mo ago
        Have you tried asking an LLM to fix that?
      - tremon 1mo ago
        Ok, I'll bite. Which parts of the kernel should not be there, given that Linux is not a microkernel? I maintain that most of the code is there for hardware support, for security, or to support user-space application models. I'll grant you the in-kernel nfs server and ipsec implementations, but those are not tens of millions of lines of code. The only way I can reach that number is by lobbing off a huge part of device drivers into userspace, but that's not really an interesting discussion as it seems purely subjective.
        zbentley 1mo ago
        Hot take: filesystem drivers. Final stage boot should load two images: a kernel which surfaces block devices via HAL, and a one or more filesystem drivers which function as external backends for the in-kernel vfs system. This would facilitate more innovation and ability to quickly resolve reliability issues with filesystems, make the whole “can you boot off of it or do you need a kernel module” distinction obsolete, and would massively reduce the temptation for the kernel to support certain APIs only for certain filesystems (let me inotify on procfs, and use nonblocking IO on any FS I like, dammit!)
- jamesgill 1mo ago
  I’ve recently taken to calling it GNU minus Linux.
- adastra22 1mo ago
  I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact systemd/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, systemd plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather one more free component of a fully functioning systemd system, made useful by the systemd unit files, target definitions and vital service managers comprising a full OS as defined by Lennart Poettering. Many computer users run a modified version of the systemd system every day without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of systemd which is widely used today is often called "Linux," and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the systemd system, developed by the systemd project. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. Chiefly systemd-udevd, systemd-journald, systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd, systemd-timesyncd, systemd-logind, systemd-homed, systemd-boot, and systemd-oomd, which decides which of your remaining programs deserve to live The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete set of systemd unit files.
  - bruce511 1mo ago
    Whats in a name? Personally I use Google/Windows at work, and Steam/Windows at home. I also have a Meta/Android OS for my phone and a Garmin/Auto OS for my car. My websites are hosted on AWS/Linux, and I browse on Comcast/Internet. My entertainment comes from Warner/Netflix. Or Disney/Disney) I call it Linux, when I call it at all.
    - inigyou 1mo ago
      Yep. Stallman was just a bit salty that GNU turned out to be barely relevant. Most of the code in a so-called "GNU/Linux" system is not GNU. There really was a GNU project, but it was just an attempt to harmonize system tools across all open and proprietary Unices.
      - masfoobar 1mo ago
        > GNU turned out to be barely relevant GCC, GDB, CoreUtils, etc - A COLLECTION of useful programs alongside a kernel such as Linux. Barely relevant? We owe our thanks to the GNU project. If Linus did not create Linux, something else would have taken it's place. "Maybe" HURD... or maybe something else.
xaviervn 1mo ago
This is not GNU/Linux. GNU Hurd is a totally different kernel.
- antonvs 1mo ago
  The comment was calling Hurd a Linux killer. One hopes that was intended as a joke.
brokencode 1mo ago
Of course it’s a large and complex project in terms of code, but in terms of industrial impact it’s unlikely to ever amount to much. Linux just has too much momentum and there are too few real benefits to Hurd.
stackghost 1mo ago
I know this is in jest, but because of the "hurr durr" connotations, only the absolute most bearded of free software zealot neckbeards are going to ever run GNU Hurd beyond simplytest driving it. Open source continues its unbroken streak of showing us why naming things is important.
- a34729t 1mo ago
  That seems like an awesome reason to use it in an era of most software is an AI slopfest.
  - stackghost 1mo ago
    Go for it. I'll probably stick to Linux, though.
  - inigyou 1mo ago
    it's GPL, not plus-N-word license.
- pessimizer 1mo ago
  > but because of the "hurr durr" connotations I have no idea why you think this. You might be terminally online. Hurd is just like "herd" because it's a microkernel, and hurr durr is some social media/gamer shit a tiny amount of people started saying decades after Hurd started being developed.
  - stackghost 1mo ago
    [flagged]
    - bruce511 1mo ago
      I'll be honest by saying I for one have never heard hurr durr before. It might be a bit more localized than you think. Frankly though it's unnecessary to be so personal regarding the people involved, or even the name. Yes, at this point Hurd is no more than a curiosity. That has nothing to do with the name and everything to do with that we're not really looking for another OS. There are already a bunch of OS's to choose from. For production machines you can already choose between Windows, Mac, Linux (plus ChromeBook et al), and even BSD. Within each of those there are several mainstream flavors, and other minor ones. No one is realistically punting for Hurd in any kind of "real" environment. That said very minor OS's do provide interest to academics and hobbiests. New ideas and concepts can be tried before they get folded into main-stream OS's.
kjs3 1mo ago
Hurd is a 'Linux killer' in the same way TempleOS is.

You are calling a Linux (sorry, GNU/Linux) killer small silly stuff?

by oytis 1mo ago

You are calling a Linux (sorry, GNU/Linux) killer small silly stuff?

maplant 1mo ago

I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as GNU/Linux, is in fact, just Linux.

inigyou 1mo ago
Yeah GNU hasn't really been involved for a long time. It's Mozilla/Linux in reality. Not to mention the totally GNU-free distributions, like Alpine.
- ColdStream 1mo ago
  The efforts people will go to in order to avoid GPL3. Makes you wonder why?
  - inigyou 1mo ago
    Because large corporations want to take without giving.
    - ColdStream 1mo ago
      Yep, look at Apples 12 year journey of rebuilding everything that was moved up to GPL3.
- kristopolous 1mo ago
  If you read the historical archives, Gnu was kinda late in the game with Linux. They were distributing the Joliets 386-BSD and NetBSD and had some drama with trying to do Linux. Debian is a historical spinoff of this. I gave a conference talk about this about 4 years ago. There may be slight errors in my recollection
  - yjftsjthsd-h 1mo ago
    Where would someone read more about that history? Sounds up my alley:)
pessimizer 1mo ago
No, what they're referring to as a GNU/Linux is in fact GNU Hurd.
IsTom 1mo ago
Are you saying that Hurd will also kill Google/Linux?
- maplant 1mo ago
  What I'm saying is that Hurd is just a kernel in the same way that Linux is also just a kernel
  - xelxebar 1mo ago
    Hurd specifically includes a userspace. Its kernel is Mach.
  - darksaints 1mo ago
    The snark artist in me would say that Linux is a kernel plus tens of millions of lines of code that absolutely should not be in the kernel but are.
    - antonvs 1mo ago
      Have you tried asking an LLM to fix that?
    - tremon 1mo ago
      Ok, I'll bite. Which parts of the kernel should not be there, given that Linux is not a microkernel? I maintain that most of the code is there for hardware support, for security, or to support user-space application models. I'll grant you the in-kernel nfs server and ipsec implementations, but those are not tens of millions of lines of code. The only way I can reach that number is by lobbing off a huge part of device drivers into userspace, but that's not really an interesting discussion as it seems purely subjective.
      - zbentley 1mo ago
        Hot take: filesystem drivers. Final stage boot should load two images: a kernel which surfaces block devices via HAL, and a one or more filesystem drivers which function as external backends for the in-kernel vfs system. This would facilitate more innovation and ability to quickly resolve reliability issues with filesystems, make the whole “can you boot off of it or do you need a kernel module” distinction obsolete, and would massively reduce the temptation for the kernel to support certain APIs only for certain filesystems (let me inotify on procfs, and use nonblocking IO on any FS I like, dammit!)
jamesgill 1mo ago
I’ve recently taken to calling it GNU minus Linux.
adastra22 1mo ago
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact systemd/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, systemd plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather one more free component of a fully functioning systemd system, made useful by the systemd unit files, target definitions and vital service managers comprising a full OS as defined by Lennart Poettering. Many computer users run a modified version of the systemd system every day without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of systemd which is widely used today is often called "Linux," and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the systemd system, developed by the systemd project. There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. Chiefly systemd-udevd, systemd-journald, systemd-resolved, systemd-networkd, systemd-timesyncd, systemd-logind, systemd-homed, systemd-boot, and systemd-oomd, which decides which of your remaining programs deserve to live The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete set of systemd unit files.
- bruce511 1mo ago
  Whats in a name? Personally I use Google/Windows at work, and Steam/Windows at home. I also have a Meta/Android OS for my phone and a Garmin/Auto OS for my car. My websites are hosted on AWS/Linux, and I browse on Comcast/Internet. My entertainment comes from Warner/Netflix. Or Disney/Disney) I call it Linux, when I call it at all.
  - inigyou 1mo ago
    Yep. Stallman was just a bit salty that GNU turned out to be barely relevant. Most of the code in a so-called "GNU/Linux" system is not GNU. There really was a GNU project, but it was just an attempt to harmonize system tools across all open and proprietary Unices.
    - masfoobar 1mo ago
      > GNU turned out to be barely relevant GCC, GDB, CoreUtils, etc - A COLLECTION of useful programs alongside a kernel such as Linux. Barely relevant? We owe our thanks to the GNU project. If Linus did not create Linux, something else would have taken it's place. "Maybe" HURD... or maybe something else.

xaviervn 1mo ago

This is not GNU/Linux. GNU Hurd is a totally different kernel.

antonvs 1mo ago
The comment was calling Hurd a Linux killer. One hopes that was intended as a joke.

brokencode 1mo ago

Of course it’s a large and complex project in terms of code, but in terms of industrial impact it’s unlikely to ever amount to much. Linux just has too much momentum and there are too few real benefits to Hurd.

stackghost 1mo ago

I know this is in jest, but because of the "hurr durr" connotations, only the absolute most bearded of free software zealot neckbeards are going to ever run GNU Hurd beyond simplytest driving it. Open source continues its unbroken streak of showing us why naming things is important.

a34729t 1mo ago
That seems like an awesome reason to use it in an era of most software is an AI slopfest.
- stackghost 1mo ago
  Go for it. I'll probably stick to Linux, though.
- inigyou 1mo ago
  it's GPL, not plus-N-word license.
pessimizer 1mo ago
> but because of the "hurr durr" connotations I have no idea why you think this. You might be terminally online. Hurd is just like "herd" because it's a microkernel, and hurr durr is some social media/gamer shit a tiny amount of people started saying decades after Hurd started being developed.
- stackghost 1mo ago
  [flagged]
  - bruce511 1mo ago
    I'll be honest by saying I for one have never heard hurr durr before. It might be a bit more localized than you think. Frankly though it's unnecessary to be so personal regarding the people involved, or even the name. Yes, at this point Hurd is no more than a curiosity. That has nothing to do with the name and everything to do with that we're not really looking for another OS. There are already a bunch of OS's to choose from. For production machines you can already choose between Windows, Mac, Linux (plus ChromeBook et al), and even BSD. Within each of those there are several mainstream flavors, and other minor ones. No one is realistically punting for Hurd in any kind of "real" environment. That said very minor OS's do provide interest to academics and hobbiests. New ideas and concepts can be tried before they get folded into main-stream OS's.

kjs3 1mo ago

Hurd is a 'Linux killer' in the same way TempleOS is.