6 ms·

blows my mind that there’s not a single open solution for mobile wallets and nobody is saying anything.

by pitchlatte 2mo ago

tonyhart7 2mo ago
"open solution for mobile wallets" define open wallet then
tjoff 2mo ago
Because a normal card is superior in most practical cases?
- askonomm 2mo ago
  It is? I haven’t carried my wallet around in years, because Apple Wallet does everything I need. Concert tickets, boarding passes, bank cards, public transport cards, etc. A physical wallet and cards in comparison feels like stone age technology.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    Banks and card networks will only accept proprietary shitware as payment. Would you rather keep the malware confined to a separate processor chip or would you let it run on your phone?
    - wltr 2mo ago
      In other words, would you like to have your physical card to be lost or stolen and someone paying with it? As small amounts don’t ask for a pin confirmation. Having my phone stolen is pretty much another level of attack.
      - tjoff 2mo ago
        Yes... that $25 if they manage to get even that before it is blocked I can live with. Loosing my phone, even if they can't do anything with it is a whole other scenario. Now I can't even get home.
      - carlosjobim 2mo ago
        Your bank will refund any stolen money if your card is stolen.
      - kelnos 2mo ago
        > would you like to have your physical card to be lost or stolen and someone paying with it? I don't really care, as I'm protected from fraud by the card issuer and regulations in my country. > Having my phone stolen is pretty much another level of attack. Stealing a wallet or a phone seems just about the same level of difficulty. And you can trick an iPhone into believing you're a transit terminal and charge arbitrary amounts to real credit cards, without unlocking the phone. (And Apple thinks this is a feature.) The attack requires specialized hardware and physical access, but if you've stolen the phone, that's fine. (Yes, I know, this article is about Android. But most people where I live have iPhones, even if I don't.)
  - tjoff 2mo ago
    Yes it is. Doesn't break if drop it for one. Much smaller than a phone. Isn't tied to apples ecosystem. etc. I get that you might want one if you are a tech maximalist with a single focus. But that doesn't mean you should stop carrying your card.
  - giantg2 2mo ago
    Don't you still have to carry cards for things that aren't digitally excepted, such as a drivers license in most states?
    - askonomm 1mo ago
      I'm not an American. In Estonia your ID is entirely digital, and I just show my e-Estonia government provided app to a scanner, which can scan my ID from there and verify it. Same with a drivers license. As long as I travel within EU I also don't need to carry a passport with me as a EU citizen.
      - deleted 1mo ago
        [deleted]
  - ajsnigrutin 2mo ago
    And your battery goes empty, and you just lost everything. Or your phone falls to the ground and breaks. And to add to payments, the store loyalty apps are the worst... Lidl over here has an app only (no physical loyalty card), and they should be hanged for developing that... first of all, you're waiting in line while a grandma takes her phone out of her purse, then unlock it, and of course android is not satisfied with her fingerprint right then but also wants a pin... then all apps, then scroll down to L, find LidlPlus app, tap on it... QR code? Nope, not yet! First you get a daily coupon wheel of fortune, tap, wait for it to spin, see what your award is... and if it's something that she just bought, she has to manually activate that coupon in the menu (again, tap, find, tap, tap back), and then click the card button to get the qr code to scan... it's literally minutes sometimes of just waiting, instead of scanning a simple qr code on a plastic card pulled from the wallet. We even had one of our telcos break down (full internet loss, country wide), POS terminals not working at all, and there are actually people with zero cash with them, not even like 50 euros (for just-in-case (like this))... and then you have to wait for them to turn around, take their stuff back and go home hungry.
    - askonomm 1mo ago
      I also have Apple Wallet on my Apple Watch. I can use the Apple Watch to also pay for things.
- wltr 2mo ago
  No it’s not, all of my and my extended family cards (for… like a decade!) are never even leave the envelope they come in. I’m not sure I personally know people who use physical cards over Google or Apple Pay. I have seen the cards being used in the wild, of course. But I’m having hard time remembering anyone I personally know who does that.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    How strange that culture is so different in different places. You can just start using them, though. Literally just swipe your card whenever you would swipe your phone. Do you guys not have wallets with card slots?
    - ddeeo 2mo ago
      I've never had a physical wallet period. I'm not some Gen alpha baby either, I'm almost 30. I have like 4 bank accounts too.
      - inigyou 1mo ago
        Go buy one and put your cards in it
  - tjoff 2mo ago
    So, the argument is that it is popular? I'm not arguing against that... That people trade anything for even just perceived convenience? That isn't news either, but it does explain a lot of the sad state of affairs we are struggling with today.
  - nextos 2mo ago
    You need them in some scenarios. For example, lots of car rental companies refuse to take anything but a physical card.
  - kelnos 2mo ago
    > I’m not sure I personally know people who use physical cards over Google or Apple Pay. You live in a pretty weird bubble. (And I live in San Francisco, so I know about weird bubbles.)
- BatteryMountain 2mo ago
  I'm starting to come the the same conclusion, but not for practical reasons. My thinking is about privacy. If I buy some chocolates from retailer X (with or without their loyalty system), these parties will know what I purchased and where: The retailer, the bank, the merchant (visa/mc), wallet provider (Google/Apple/Samsung). Any upstream 3rd parties for analytics, big data warehouses, ai companies (fraud detection, spending predictions), marketing companies, research companies, manufacturers. Then there are bluetooth beacons, microphones, cameras, facial recognition, keyboard/screen capture (Gboard, Samsung Keyboard, Whatsapp texts). Then there is sms and popup notification on device that gets ingested by x amount of systems too. So the whole pipe just exists to gather as much as possible data to sell me more stuff. Having a card will take some of them out of the loop or less rich metadata than using a digital wallet.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    A card is a good step to reduce that. I want to go farther and pay cash as much as possible, but it's not trivial to manage when all I have is a pocket full of coins. Is there a 3D printed wallet with slots sized for European coins so you can quickly identify and extract the coins you need instead of rummaging through a mixed pocket?
    - craftkiller 2mo ago
      For the Americans: https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/6844022/Nadex-Coins-4-Barrel-Steel-Coin/ https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/6844022/Nadex-Coins-4... I assume the same must exist for euros.
- ddeeo 2mo ago
  Haven't used a normal card in over a decade. I don't think my bank actually makes physical cards anymore, last time my card expired I just had a popup in the bank app that told me I have a new card. This was like 2-3 years ago. I use Google/Android Pay (or whatever it's called now) for NFC payments and have since 2018 and never carried a physical card since. I would never use a physical card with NFC anyway because it is both inconvenient (have to enter PIN every 5 transactions) and insecure (for transactions without PIN there's no verification layer), whereas on my phone I have to unlock it for every transaction no matter how small, and doing so is a small matter of pressing my finger on the fingerprint reader. I'm as anti-capitalist as they come but this is kind of a lost fight in my mind because if not Google - then Visa/Mastercard and the bank itself will know every transaction I make anyway.
inigyou 2mo ago
You have to negotiate directly with Visa to convince them why they should accept your system. How will you convince them?
- m12k 2mo ago
  We desperately need to break Visa's stranglehold on access to the consumer side of commerce. As long as everyone's only innovating and competing on the merchant side of things, we're not really going to get anywhere.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    You're free to make your own card network. How will you convince banks to issue your cards and merchants to accept them?
    - _ZeD_ 2mo ago
      You mean like the EU digital wallet
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        You're free to try and make something like that.
        notpushkin 2mo ago
        They are making something like that as we speak. I’m not sure why though, they’ve had free SEPA Instant transfers for ages now.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        Many EU online shops accept SEPA payment. It isn't convenient, because it's a push payment (giro) which means the site can't stick it in the middle of the order flow and expect it to take a few seconds. Some users might have to visit a bank branch to send payment.

blows my mind that there’s not a single open solution for mobile wallets and nobody is saying anything.

tonyhart7 2mo ago

"open solution for mobile wallets" define open wallet then

tjoff 2mo ago

Because a normal card is superior in most practical cases?

askonomm 2mo ago
It is? I haven’t carried my wallet around in years, because Apple Wallet does everything I need. Concert tickets, boarding passes, bank cards, public transport cards, etc. A physical wallet and cards in comparison feels like stone age technology.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Banks and card networks will only accept proprietary shitware as payment. Would you rather keep the malware confined to a separate processor chip or would you let it run on your phone?
  - wltr 2mo ago
    In other words, would you like to have your physical card to be lost or stolen and someone paying with it? As small amounts don’t ask for a pin confirmation. Having my phone stolen is pretty much another level of attack.
    - tjoff 2mo ago
      Yes... that $25 if they manage to get even that before it is blocked I can live with. Loosing my phone, even if they can't do anything with it is a whole other scenario. Now I can't even get home.
    - carlosjobim 2mo ago
      Your bank will refund any stolen money if your card is stolen.
    - kelnos 2mo ago
      > would you like to have your physical card to be lost or stolen and someone paying with it? I don't really care, as I'm protected from fraud by the card issuer and regulations in my country. > Having my phone stolen is pretty much another level of attack. Stealing a wallet or a phone seems just about the same level of difficulty. And you can trick an iPhone into believing you're a transit terminal and charge arbitrary amounts to real credit cards, without unlocking the phone. (And Apple thinks this is a feature.) The attack requires specialized hardware and physical access, but if you've stolen the phone, that's fine. (Yes, I know, this article is about Android. But most people where I live have iPhones, even if I don't.)
- tjoff 2mo ago
  Yes it is. Doesn't break if drop it for one. Much smaller than a phone. Isn't tied to apples ecosystem. etc. I get that you might want one if you are a tech maximalist with a single focus. But that doesn't mean you should stop carrying your card.
- giantg2 2mo ago
  Don't you still have to carry cards for things that aren't digitally excepted, such as a drivers license in most states?
  - askonomm 1mo ago
    I'm not an American. In Estonia your ID is entirely digital, and I just show my e-Estonia government provided app to a scanner, which can scan my ID from there and verify it. Same with a drivers license. As long as I travel within EU I also don't need to carry a passport with me as a EU citizen.
    - deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
- ajsnigrutin 2mo ago
  And your battery goes empty, and you just lost everything. Or your phone falls to the ground and breaks. And to add to payments, the store loyalty apps are the worst... Lidl over here has an app only (no physical loyalty card), and they should be hanged for developing that... first of all, you're waiting in line while a grandma takes her phone out of her purse, then unlock it, and of course android is not satisfied with her fingerprint right then but also wants a pin... then all apps, then scroll down to L, find LidlPlus app, tap on it... QR code? Nope, not yet! First you get a daily coupon wheel of fortune, tap, wait for it to spin, see what your award is... and if it's something that she just bought, she has to manually activate that coupon in the menu (again, tap, find, tap, tap back), and then click the card button to get the qr code to scan... it's literally minutes sometimes of just waiting, instead of scanning a simple qr code on a plastic card pulled from the wallet. We even had one of our telcos break down (full internet loss, country wide), POS terminals not working at all, and there are actually people with zero cash with them, not even like 50 euros (for just-in-case (like this))... and then you have to wait for them to turn around, take their stuff back and go home hungry.
  - askonomm 1mo ago
    I also have Apple Wallet on my Apple Watch. I can use the Apple Watch to also pay for things.
wltr 2mo ago
No it’s not, all of my and my extended family cards (for… like a decade!) are never even leave the envelope they come in. I’m not sure I personally know people who use physical cards over Google or Apple Pay. I have seen the cards being used in the wild, of course. But I’m having hard time remembering anyone I personally know who does that.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  How strange that culture is so different in different places. You can just start using them, though. Literally just swipe your card whenever you would swipe your phone. Do you guys not have wallets with card slots?
  - ddeeo 2mo ago
    I've never had a physical wallet period. I'm not some Gen alpha baby either, I'm almost 30. I have like 4 bank accounts too.
    - inigyou 1mo ago
      Go buy one and put your cards in it
- tjoff 2mo ago
  So, the argument is that it is popular? I'm not arguing against that... That people trade anything for even just perceived convenience? That isn't news either, but it does explain a lot of the sad state of affairs we are struggling with today.
- nextos 2mo ago
  You need them in some scenarios. For example, lots of car rental companies refuse to take anything but a physical card.
- kelnos 2mo ago
  > I’m not sure I personally know people who use physical cards over Google or Apple Pay. You live in a pretty weird bubble. (And I live in San Francisco, so I know about weird bubbles.)
BatteryMountain 2mo ago
I'm starting to come the the same conclusion, but not for practical reasons. My thinking is about privacy. If I buy some chocolates from retailer X (with or without their loyalty system), these parties will know what I purchased and where: The retailer, the bank, the merchant (visa/mc), wallet provider (Google/Apple/Samsung). Any upstream 3rd parties for analytics, big data warehouses, ai companies (fraud detection, spending predictions), marketing companies, research companies, manufacturers. Then there are bluetooth beacons, microphones, cameras, facial recognition, keyboard/screen capture (Gboard, Samsung Keyboard, Whatsapp texts). Then there is sms and popup notification on device that gets ingested by x amount of systems too. So the whole pipe just exists to gather as much as possible data to sell me more stuff. Having a card will take some of them out of the loop or less rich metadata than using a digital wallet.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  A card is a good step to reduce that. I want to go farther and pay cash as much as possible, but it's not trivial to manage when all I have is a pocket full of coins. Is there a 3D printed wallet with slots sized for European coins so you can quickly identify and extract the coins you need instead of rummaging through a mixed pocket?
  - craftkiller 2mo ago
    For the Americans: https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/6844022/Nadex-Coins-4-Barrel-Steel-Coin/ https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/6844022/Nadex-Coins-4... I assume the same must exist for euros.
ddeeo 2mo ago
Haven't used a normal card in over a decade. I don't think my bank actually makes physical cards anymore, last time my card expired I just had a popup in the bank app that told me I have a new card. This was like 2-3 years ago. I use Google/Android Pay (or whatever it's called now) for NFC payments and have since 2018 and never carried a physical card since. I would never use a physical card with NFC anyway because it is both inconvenient (have to enter PIN every 5 transactions) and insecure (for transactions without PIN there's no verification layer), whereas on my phone I have to unlock it for every transaction no matter how small, and doing so is a small matter of pressing my finger on the fingerprint reader. I'm as anti-capitalist as they come but this is kind of a lost fight in my mind because if not Google - then Visa/Mastercard and the bank itself will know every transaction I make anyway.

inigyou 2mo ago

You have to negotiate directly with Visa to convince them why they should accept your system. How will you convince them?

m12k 2mo ago
We desperately need to break Visa's stranglehold on access to the consumer side of commerce. As long as everyone's only innovating and competing on the merchant side of things, we're not really going to get anywhere.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  You're free to make your own card network. How will you convince banks to issue your cards and merchants to accept them?
  - _ZeD_ 2mo ago
    You mean like the EU digital wallet
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      You're free to try and make something like that.
      - notpushkin 2mo ago
        They are making something like that as we speak. I’m not sure why though, they’ve had free SEPA Instant transfers for ages now.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        Many EU online shops accept SEPA payment. It isn't convenient, because it's a push payment (giro) which means the site can't stick it in the middle of the order flow and expect it to take a few seconds. Some users might have to visit a bank branch to send payment.