10 ms·

Its a huge issue in cold climates.

zuzululu 2mo ago
uphills + cold/hot climates, the ranges won't be able to compete with ICE. its basic physics. cold uphill still reduces charging speed, available power, and range, while sustained heat accelerates degradation. Thermal-management systems mitigate those weaknesses by consuming energy and adding cost, weight, and complexity. meanwhile ICE has gotten ridiculously clean and efficient over the years it is more efficient at the shaft does not settle total-system efficiency, cost, weight, resource use, grid losses, battery production, or suitability for every operating env. Comparing an engine with a motor while ignoring the battery and electricity supply chain is silly I still do not trust that sitting on a pile of lithium batteries is safe. NMC does not mean non flammable or consequence free. LFP cells can still enter thermal runaway, release toxic gases, reignite, and require difficult firefighting procedures. They also generally trade energy density and cold-weather performance for that improved safety. Also the speed charging ? That dramatically reduces the stability and lifespan of the batteries. Ton of used EVs not being sold because the battery replacement is somewhere between 40~60% of the car's value. we had ICE for over a century now, its just like a software that gets continuous updates ICE systems are highly optimized, repairable, energy-dense, fast to refuel, and supported by enormous infrastructure. EVs are improving faster partly because they still have major weaknesses to solve. A steeper improvement curve does not prove that the present technology is superior for every use case neither is using the latest javascript framework.
- heaney-555 2mo ago
  The latest battery chemistries perform incredibly well in cold and hot climates. Internal combustion is not clean, and is inherently significantly less efficient than an electric motor. Also, LFP chemistries are incredibly safe compared to NMC, which is what you're concerned about in terms of thermal runaway. ICE is mostly stagnant tech. Meanwhile EV tech is rapidly improving!
  - not_the_fda 2mo ago
    > The latest battery chemistries perform incredibly well in cold and hot climates. Depends on your definition of cold. California cold sure. Wisconsin cold you are looking at losing 40%-60% range.
    - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
      China cold tests their EVs in Harbin and Mohe, where “cold” means -40 (F or C doesn’t matter, it’s the same). They lose some range, and indoor charging garages are more common (for better charging performance), but the tech has gotten good enough that even harbiners (a small city of 20 million people) are adopting EVs at a rapid clip.
      - zuzululu 2mo ago
        so good that batteries are ejected when they catch fire
        seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
        It is so rare for EVs to catch fire that it makes the news whenever one does, and these form the core of the anti-EV memes that are popular with boomers on Facebook.
        zuzululu 2mo ago
        never seen an ICE catch fire on its own but its rare you say ? https://www.energytrend.com/news/20221018-30074.html https://www.energytrend.com/news/20221018-30074.html
        seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
        I’ve seen plenty ICEs catch fire on the side of the freeway, no idea how they got there but it’s not “news” when it happens since it happens so often.
- epistasis 2mo ago
  > its basic physics Could you ELI5 these basic physics? I've heard many people make claims like this but there's never any physics that actually follows. I've had most of an undergraduate curriculum of physics, so if it's beyond basic, then don't be afraid to refer to those physical ideas. > meanwhile ICE has gotten ridiculously clean and efficient over the years it is more efficient at the shaft does not settle total-system efficiency, cost, weight, resource use, grid losses, battery production, or suitability for every operating env Is 30% "ridiculously clean and efficient"? 35%? I'm not sure I can agree with that at all. Battery production? That's ridiculously efficient. For a very small amount weight, there's an insane amount of Wh that get shuttled through that material, which can then be recycled into even more kWh of storage than went into the recycling process, due to the continual improvement in battery production efficiency. Meanwhile, every single gallon of gas results in 20 pounds of CO2 emissions. Fracking oil requires disposing of 2-10 gallons of dirty waste water for every gallon of gas. That's a massive amount of waste for only 20-50 vehicle miles.
- Toutouxc 2mo ago
  > Ton of used EVs not being sold because the battery replacement is somewhere between 40~60% of the car's value. These EVs, are they in the room with us?

uphills + cold/hot climates, the ranges won't be able to compete with ICE. its basic physics. cold uphill still reduces charging speed, available power, and range, while sustained heat accelerates degradation. Thermal-management systems mitigate those weaknesses by consuming energy and adding cost, weight, and complexity. meanwhile ICE has gotten ridiculously clean and efficient over the years it is more efficient at the shaft does not settle total-system efficiency, cost, weight, resource use, grid losses, battery production, or suitability for every operating env. Comparing an engine with a motor while ignoring the battery and electricity supply chain is silly I still do not trust that sitting on a pile of lithium batteries is safe. NMC does not mean non flammable or consequence free. LFP cells can still enter thermal runaway, release toxic gases, reignite, and require difficult firefighting procedures. They also generally trade energy density and cold-weather performance for that improved safety. Also the speed charging ? That dramatically reduces the stability and lifespan of the batteries. Ton of used EVs not being sold because the battery replacement is somewhere between 40~60% of the car's value. we had ICE for over a century now, its just like a software that gets continuous updates ICE systems are highly optimized, repairable, energy-dense, fast to refuel, and supported by enormous infrastructure. EVs are improving faster partly because they still have major weaknesses to solve. A steeper improvement curve does not prove that the present technology is superior for every use case neither is using the latest javascript framework.

heaney-555 2mo ago
The latest battery chemistries perform incredibly well in cold and hot climates. Internal combustion is not clean, and is inherently significantly less efficient than an electric motor. Also, LFP chemistries are incredibly safe compared to NMC, which is what you're concerned about in terms of thermal runaway. ICE is mostly stagnant tech. Meanwhile EV tech is rapidly improving!
- not_the_fda 2mo ago
  > The latest battery chemistries perform incredibly well in cold and hot climates. Depends on your definition of cold. California cold sure. Wisconsin cold you are looking at losing 40%-60% range.
  - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
    China cold tests their EVs in Harbin and Mohe, where “cold” means -40 (F or C doesn’t matter, it’s the same). They lose some range, and indoor charging garages are more common (for better charging performance), but the tech has gotten good enough that even harbiners (a small city of 20 million people) are adopting EVs at a rapid clip.
    - zuzululu 2mo ago
      so good that batteries are ejected when they catch fire
      - seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
        It is so rare for EVs to catch fire that it makes the news whenever one does, and these form the core of the anti-EV memes that are popular with boomers on Facebook.
        zuzululu 2mo ago
        never seen an ICE catch fire on its own but its rare you say ? https://www.energytrend.com/news/20221018-30074.html https://www.energytrend.com/news/20221018-30074.html
        seanmcdirmid 2mo ago
        I’ve seen plenty ICEs catch fire on the side of the freeway, no idea how they got there but it’s not “news” when it happens since it happens so often.
epistasis 2mo ago
> its basic physics Could you ELI5 these basic physics? I've heard many people make claims like this but there's never any physics that actually follows. I've had most of an undergraduate curriculum of physics, so if it's beyond basic, then don't be afraid to refer to those physical ideas. > meanwhile ICE has gotten ridiculously clean and efficient over the years it is more efficient at the shaft does not settle total-system efficiency, cost, weight, resource use, grid losses, battery production, or suitability for every operating env Is 30% "ridiculously clean and efficient"? 35%? I'm not sure I can agree with that at all. Battery production? That's ridiculously efficient. For a very small amount weight, there's an insane amount of Wh that get shuttled through that material, which can then be recycled into even more kWh of storage than went into the recycling process, due to the continual improvement in battery production efficiency. Meanwhile, every single gallon of gas results in 20 pounds of CO2 emissions. Fracking oil requires disposing of 2-10 gallons of dirty waste water for every gallon of gas. That's a massive amount of waste for only 20-50 vehicle miles.
Toutouxc 2mo ago
> Ton of used EVs not being sold because the battery replacement is somewhere between 40~60% of the car's value. These EVs, are they in the room with us?