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AI is just a tech like any other. Can be powered by CO2-neutral electricity like anything else. Otherwise, we'll have to protest against aluminum cans, airplane

AI is just a tech like any other. Can be powered by CO2-neutral electricity like anything else. Otherwise, we'll have to protest against aluminum cans, airplanes, golf courts, lemon trees, and whatever else that uses water or electricity.

ch71r22 2mo ago
That's a false equivalence. AI is not the same as aluminum cans. All technologies have political, social, ethical, and economic aspects, and not all technologies are the same. AI is not, in reality, powered by CO2-neutral electricity. As the article mentions, AI is the fastest-growing energy user in the world, so it probably merits a deeper look than aluminum cans.
- atemerev 2mo ago
  Aluminum production is one of the largest electricity consumers out there, much larger than AI.
  - Legend2440 2mo ago
    True in fact. Aluminum manufacturing is responsible for roughly 2% of global greenhouse gas emissions, and if you add in metal manufacturing as a whole it comes up to 11%. Refining ore is very energy-intensive.
- Legend2440 2mo ago
  AI is also an incredibly useful tool that could automate many industries, so it deserves some leeway because of the benefits it provides. And while it is 'fastest-growing', it is small as an absolute share - around 0.2% of total world CO2 emissions.
  - dminik 2mo ago
    So it can both outprice people as well as take their jobs? Well, leeway away.
    - Legend2440 2mo ago
      The only reason we have the standard of living we do today is because of automation. I welcome more of it.
      - dminik 2mo ago
        Only insofar as you were able to keep a job. If you lose your job to automation, and there are no more jobs left, what do you do? Where do you get the money to keep your standard of living?
        Legend2440 2mo ago
        Either we will invent new jobs, as we have always done in the past. Or if truly all jobs can be done by machine, we retire and go live a life of fully automated luxury space communism.
        dminik 2mo ago
        I wish I could share your optimism.
        mbrumlow 2mo ago
        Having jobs for the sake of having jobs sounds like living in hell. From what I can tell your argument works out to be as simple as we can’t do this because we want to keep people working, which the vast majority of people hate doing. There is a small minority of people who enjoy work. It seems cruel to enslave a people in mass simply to keep them busy.
        dminik 2mo ago
        The current economic system is based on people working in exchange for payment. They can then use it on their own life, including living space, food, health and entertainment. Those who do not work do not get such "luxuries." I'm not arguing for forcing people to work. If we get to a point where no work is economically feasible for humans to do I would very much like some form of UBI or similar to take care of people. Speaking of enslaving people, the billionaire class has started speaking of removing peoples right to vote if they do not pay taxes (e.g. if they do not work.) https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/articles/why-did-154-billion-ceo-160000582.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/articles/why-did-154-bil... I very much wish that people would no longer have to do busy work and that they would have time for family and hobbies, but being the pessimist that I am, I'm not very hopeful we'll get there any time soon.
  - cuu508 2mo ago
    Incredibly useful for some definition of incredibly useful. What I see: - I now regularly receive AI-written spam emails (marketing pitches, "vulnerability reports"). - I was receiving AI-written garbage quality pull requests. It got so annoying I closed pull requests on my project's repo. - When I try to contact some company's customer support these days there's a good chance I will be fed slop by an agent posing as a customer support person, this is absolutely infuriating. - When I search for information on the internet, for certain queries, 90% of the results is slop. - AI crawlers are DDoSing websites. - The already mentioned things – hardware getting more expensive, climate impact, unethically sourced training data.
- TiredOfLife 2mo ago
  > AI is not the same as aluminum cans. True. AI is actually useful.
lptrap 2mo ago
Aluminum cans had a distinct use. AI just invades a perfectly working industry that made Torvalds filthy rich and adds nothing- And he defends it because he is corporate now. It is more like leaded fuel or DDT.
- atemerev 2mo ago
  Adds nothing? In what world are you living?
NewJazz 2mo ago
Plenty of people campaign against things like airplanes or golf courses. They might even be the same folks protesting AI usage! Imagine that!
- atemerev 2mo ago
  Well thanks, but I prefer to have airplanes, and maybe occasionally even golf courses. As for climate change - you'd need to protest against Chinese (and Western, but mostly Chinese) coal and gas power plants way way before than you protest against airplanes and golf courses. I don't see too many protesters holding signs like "stop Chinese coal plants". For some reason.
  - NewJazz 2mo ago
    Maybe because their ability to influence coal power generation policy in China is much less than their ability to influence it in the US? Or because Chinese AI has enabled a complete crackdown on dissent? Hmm, imagine that!
    - atemerev 2mo ago
      Well I see much less protests against gas and coal powered stations in the US than against, say, nuclear.

ch71r22 2mo ago

That's a false equivalence. AI is not the same as aluminum cans. All technologies have political, social, ethical, and economic aspects, and not all technologies are the same. AI is not, in reality, powered by CO2-neutral electricity. As the article mentions, AI is the fastest-growing energy user in the world, so it probably merits a deeper look than aluminum cans.

atemerev 2mo ago
Aluminum production is one of the largest electricity consumers out there, much larger than AI.
- Legend2440 2mo ago
  True in fact. Aluminum manufacturing is responsible for roughly 2% of global greenhouse gas emissions, and if you add in metal manufacturing as a whole it comes up to 11%. Refining ore is very energy-intensive.
Legend2440 2mo ago
AI is also an incredibly useful tool that could automate many industries, so it deserves some leeway because of the benefits it provides. And while it is 'fastest-growing', it is small as an absolute share - around 0.2% of total world CO2 emissions.
- dminik 2mo ago
  So it can both outprice people as well as take their jobs? Well, leeway away.
  - Legend2440 2mo ago
    The only reason we have the standard of living we do today is because of automation. I welcome more of it.
    - dminik 2mo ago
      Only insofar as you were able to keep a job. If you lose your job to automation, and there are no more jobs left, what do you do? Where do you get the money to keep your standard of living?
      - Legend2440 2mo ago
        Either we will invent new jobs, as we have always done in the past. Or if truly all jobs can be done by machine, we retire and go live a life of fully automated luxury space communism.
        dminik 2mo ago
        I wish I could share your optimism.
        mbrumlow 2mo ago
        Having jobs for the sake of having jobs sounds like living in hell. From what I can tell your argument works out to be as simple as we can’t do this because we want to keep people working, which the vast majority of people hate doing. There is a small minority of people who enjoy work. It seems cruel to enslave a people in mass simply to keep them busy.
        dminik 2mo ago
        The current economic system is based on people working in exchange for payment. They can then use it on their own life, including living space, food, health and entertainment. Those who do not work do not get such "luxuries." I'm not arguing for forcing people to work. If we get to a point where no work is economically feasible for humans to do I would very much like some form of UBI or similar to take care of people. Speaking of enslaving people, the billionaire class has started speaking of removing peoples right to vote if they do not pay taxes (e.g. if they do not work.) https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/articles/why-did-154-billion-ceo-160000582.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/articles/why-did-154-bil... I very much wish that people would no longer have to do busy work and that they would have time for family and hobbies, but being the pessimist that I am, I'm not very hopeful we'll get there any time soon.
- cuu508 2mo ago
  Incredibly useful for some definition of incredibly useful. What I see: - I now regularly receive AI-written spam emails (marketing pitches, "vulnerability reports"). - I was receiving AI-written garbage quality pull requests. It got so annoying I closed pull requests on my project's repo. - When I try to contact some company's customer support these days there's a good chance I will be fed slop by an agent posing as a customer support person, this is absolutely infuriating. - When I search for information on the internet, for certain queries, 90% of the results is slop. - AI crawlers are DDoSing websites. - The already mentioned things – hardware getting more expensive, climate impact, unethically sourced training data.
TiredOfLife 2mo ago
> AI is not the same as aluminum cans. True. AI is actually useful.

lptrap 2mo ago

Aluminum cans had a distinct use. AI just invades a perfectly working industry that made Torvalds filthy rich and adds nothing- And he defends it because he is corporate now. It is more like leaded fuel or DDT.

atemerev 2mo ago
Adds nothing? In what world are you living?

NewJazz 2mo ago

Plenty of people campaign against things like airplanes or golf courses. They might even be the same folks protesting AI usage! Imagine that!

atemerev 2mo ago
Well thanks, but I prefer to have airplanes, and maybe occasionally even golf courses. As for climate change - you'd need to protest against Chinese (and Western, but mostly Chinese) coal and gas power plants way way before than you protest against airplanes and golf courses. I don't see too many protesters holding signs like "stop Chinese coal plants". For some reason.
- NewJazz 2mo ago
  Maybe because their ability to influence coal power generation policy in China is much less than their ability to influence it in the US? Or because Chinese AI has enabled a complete crackdown on dissent? Hmm, imagine that!
  - atemerev 2mo ago
    Well I see much less protests against gas and coal powered stations in the US than against, say, nuclear.