5 ms·

If some individuals are committing crimes, why isn't the normal criminal justice system the answer, instead of deportation? And deport them to where exactly, a

If some individuals are committing crimes, why isn't the normal criminal justice system the answer, instead of deportation? And deport them to where exactly, and on what justification? They've been in Europe for a thousand years and are effectively stateless.

dash2 2mo ago
I don't think most gypsies are stateless.
- evanelias 2mo ago
  I meant in the sense that Roma are an ethnicity lacking their own sovereign state, "stateless" as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation
  - dash2 2mo ago
    OK. But then the answer to your initial question would be "deported to their home countries".
    - evanelias 2mo ago
      Which is where, exactly, for the people in question? i.e. what is the legal home country for most Roma in Denmark? Given folks like DHH have such strong opinions about this, I would expect they should be able to detail the specifics of the mass deportation plan they're proposing!
      - dash2 2mo ago
        Presumably, if they are immigrants, then they have a passport and a legal home country. I agree with you that mass deportation (i.e. deportation of a whole group not based on individual guilt or innocence) is bad. Just saying that this particular argument isn't relevant.
        evanelias 2mo ago
        Pardon my skepticism, but cursory web searching and LLM prompting is giving me responses like "a significant portion of the European Roma population faces high rates of statelessness or lacks basic civil documents", while citing real website articles with titles such as "Many Roma in Europe are stateless and live outside social protection". That aligns 100% with things I've read previously, but that said, I'm not terribly well-informed on the topic and maybe I'm entirely wrong here. Do you have any links/info that support what you're saying?
        dash2 2mo ago
        Being literally stateless is not the same as not having a passport. (My father-in-law doesn't have one, but he's a perfectly respectable citizen!) Being in a foreign country without a passport is also not being stateless - it may well correspond to being an illegal immigrant, however. It is quite hard to be made stateless. You have to be born in a very unlucky place. All of this means that immigrants can be deported to their country of origin.
        deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
        evanelias 2mo ago
        The articles I read yesterday indicated that it would be quite difficult to determine country of origin in many cases, due to complete lack of official identity documentation. The article I previously mentioned by name literally describes statelessness and why that occurred for Roma in several specific scenarios: https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner/-/many-roma-in-europe-are-stateless-and-live-outside-social-protection https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner/-/many-roma-in-europ... So again I must ask, do you have any links that support what you're saying?
        dash2 2mo ago
        But somebody who comes into a country must know where they come from! So you can just ask them. If they refuse to say, then that seems like a them problem, no? I don’t know what proportion of gypsies are literally stateless… though like you I can ask ChatGPT. So I did, and it gave lots of links and an answer of “well under 1%”: https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a6d93888f208191a02d5e6edd0ceea9 https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a6d93888f208191a02d5e6edd0ceea9

dash2 2mo ago

I don't think most gypsies are stateless.

evanelias 2mo ago
I meant in the sense that Roma are an ethnicity lacking their own sovereign state, "stateless" as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation
- dash2 2mo ago
  OK. But then the answer to your initial question would be "deported to their home countries".
  - evanelias 2mo ago
    Which is where, exactly, for the people in question? i.e. what is the legal home country for most Roma in Denmark? Given folks like DHH have such strong opinions about this, I would expect they should be able to detail the specifics of the mass deportation plan they're proposing!
    - dash2 2mo ago
      Presumably, if they are immigrants, then they have a passport and a legal home country. I agree with you that mass deportation (i.e. deportation of a whole group not based on individual guilt or innocence) is bad. Just saying that this particular argument isn't relevant.
      - evanelias 2mo ago
        Pardon my skepticism, but cursory web searching and LLM prompting is giving me responses like "a significant portion of the European Roma population faces high rates of statelessness or lacks basic civil documents", while citing real website articles with titles such as "Many Roma in Europe are stateless and live outside social protection". That aligns 100% with things I've read previously, but that said, I'm not terribly well-informed on the topic and maybe I'm entirely wrong here. Do you have any links/info that support what you're saying?
        dash2 2mo ago
        Being literally stateless is not the same as not having a passport. (My father-in-law doesn't have one, but he's a perfectly respectable citizen!) Being in a foreign country without a passport is also not being stateless - it may well correspond to being an illegal immigrant, however. It is quite hard to be made stateless. You have to be born in a very unlucky place. All of this means that immigrants can be deported to their country of origin.
        deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
        evanelias 2mo ago
        The articles I read yesterday indicated that it would be quite difficult to determine country of origin in many cases, due to complete lack of official identity documentation. The article I previously mentioned by name literally describes statelessness and why that occurred for Roma in several specific scenarios: https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner/-/many-roma-in-europe-are-stateless-and-live-outside-social-protection https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner/-/many-roma-in-europ... So again I must ask, do you have any links that support what you're saying?
        dash2 2mo ago
        But somebody who comes into a country must know where they come from! So you can just ask them. If they refuse to say, then that seems like a them problem, no? I don’t know what proportion of gypsies are literally stateless… though like you I can ask ChatGPT. So I did, and it gave lots of links and an answer of “well under 1%”: https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a6d93888f208191a02d5e6edd0ceea9 https://chatgpt.com/s/t_6a6d93888f208191a02d5e6edd0ceea9