7 ms·

By what measurement? They all surely beat air conditioning in terms of energy usage.

by codingdave 2mo ago

AnimalMuppet 2mo ago
By the measure of "keeping the summer heat out of your home", which was in fact the topic at hand.
- codingdave 2mo ago
  But that is exactly the point. Air conditioning doesn't keep heat out - it burns energy to change the air once the heat has gotten in. There are ways to keep it out in the first place. FWIW, it isn't either/or - we practice keeping the shades, curtains, and windows drawn when it is hot, open when it is cool.... and we have air conditioning. Best of both worlds.
  - elliottkember 2mo ago
    You’re simply never going to get through to someone who has internalized the idea that AC is perfect and free. They have accommodated to the luxury and will burn the planet to keep it.
    - zemvpferreira 2mo ago
      We have more energy hitting the planet every second as radiation than we can possibly use. This is a non-issue for any civilised society switching to solar.
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        By all means, install off-grid AC powered by solar on your roof. Please report on how well it goes.
        criddell 2mo ago
        Why is off-grid a requirement? I’m in central Texas and it isn’t uncommon for rooftop solar to generate enough power to cover central a/c. Peak sun and peak a/c happen at the same time.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        It proves the system is self-contained, with no side effects other than cooling.
      - customguy 2mo ago
        Going for an AC before you even have shutters or anything on the outside is like sending an audio file of you reading a pdf per email because the "record reply" button is right there, but figuring out where on the filesystem the PDF you have open on your screen would take 5 seconds. It's not about whether you can afford it or if the recipient can, but more what it says about you and your whole approach to this life thing.
  - throw0101a 2mo ago
    > But that is exactly the point. Air conditioning doesn't keep heat out - it burns energy to change the air once the heat has gotten in. There are ways to keep it out in the first place. Yes, it's best to keep the heat out. Good insulation helps, but no insulation is perfect and eventually (thanks to the second law of thermodynamics) some will get in.
draven 2mo ago
They are complimentary. Shutters reduce the amount of heat coming in. AC gets whatever heat managed to go in out. One thing I'll never understand is not having shutters, only curtains. I live in France, almost everyone has shutters. But in other countries it's often different. I lived in Thailand for a couple of years and had only curtains, so the sun would still get past the window pane, heat the curtain, and the AC would then have take this heat outside again. This seemed massively inefficient. I thing the best compromise is using whatever traditional, passive means of cooling we can, and then AC as needed.
- jaapz 2mo ago
  Most of the time these things are governed by whatever's cheaper (in the short run). Maybe electrical energy is massively subsidized or just cheap in general. Installing shutters can be a large up-front investment, especially when installed by somebody else. It may take many years of burning energy with an AC to earn that back. Also maybe the home isn't even yours, but you are renting. The owner doesn't care about your energy bill.
  - draven 2mo ago
    I thought it was more of a cultural thing, or perhaps enforced by the building code ? Here in France I've never seen a house or flat without shutters. In Bangkok, when I was looking for a condo, none of them had shutters. A cursory web search tells me shutters can influence the DPE ("diagnostic de performance énergétique".) A bad rating means you can't rent your property.
    - exe34 2mo ago
      Do shutters make it worse? How? Is it just a bad metric?
      - masklinn 2mo ago
        Since they’re using French for the rating, I’d think the shutters improve the score and that contributes to their pervasiveness. From a quick search, older versions of the DPE ignored shutters, modern ones take them in account and their effect ranges from neutral to positive depending on details (materials, insulation, fit). It’s not entirely clear if both high seasons are considered (insulation and fit I’d think a lot less critical in summer).
throw0101a 2mo ago
>> While all of these might offer some cooling in your home, nothing beats air conditioning. > By what measurement? […] The measure of the air's temperature. It does not matter if you have shutters: if the air outside is 30C then eventually the air inside will eventually get to 30C (good insulation will simply mean it takes longer). If your outside is >30C then the only way to keep your inside <30C is to transfer the heat (which an AC does via an evaporator, refrigerant, and a condensor).

By what measurement? They all surely beat air conditioning in terms of energy usage.

AnimalMuppet 2mo ago

By the measure of "keeping the summer heat out of your home", which was in fact the topic at hand.

codingdave 2mo ago
But that is exactly the point. Air conditioning doesn't keep heat out - it burns energy to change the air once the heat has gotten in. There are ways to keep it out in the first place. FWIW, it isn't either/or - we practice keeping the shades, curtains, and windows drawn when it is hot, open when it is cool.... and we have air conditioning. Best of both worlds.
- elliottkember 2mo ago
  You’re simply never going to get through to someone who has internalized the idea that AC is perfect and free. They have accommodated to the luxury and will burn the planet to keep it.
  - zemvpferreira 2mo ago
    We have more energy hitting the planet every second as radiation than we can possibly use. This is a non-issue for any civilised society switching to solar.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      By all means, install off-grid AC powered by solar on your roof. Please report on how well it goes.
      - criddell 2mo ago
        Why is off-grid a requirement? I’m in central Texas and it isn’t uncommon for rooftop solar to generate enough power to cover central a/c. Peak sun and peak a/c happen at the same time.
        inigyou 2mo ago
        It proves the system is self-contained, with no side effects other than cooling.
    - customguy 2mo ago
      Going for an AC before you even have shutters or anything on the outside is like sending an audio file of you reading a pdf per email because the "record reply" button is right there, but figuring out where on the filesystem the PDF you have open on your screen would take 5 seconds. It's not about whether you can afford it or if the recipient can, but more what it says about you and your whole approach to this life thing.
- throw0101a 2mo ago
  > But that is exactly the point. Air conditioning doesn't keep heat out - it burns energy to change the air once the heat has gotten in. There are ways to keep it out in the first place. Yes, it's best to keep the heat out. Good insulation helps, but no insulation is perfect and eventually (thanks to the second law of thermodynamics) some will get in.

draven 2mo ago

They are complimentary. Shutters reduce the amount of heat coming in. AC gets whatever heat managed to go in out. One thing I'll never understand is not having shutters, only curtains. I live in France, almost everyone has shutters. But in other countries it's often different. I lived in Thailand for a couple of years and had only curtains, so the sun would still get past the window pane, heat the curtain, and the AC would then have take this heat outside again. This seemed massively inefficient. I thing the best compromise is using whatever traditional, passive means of cooling we can, and then AC as needed.

jaapz 2mo ago
Most of the time these things are governed by whatever's cheaper (in the short run). Maybe electrical energy is massively subsidized or just cheap in general. Installing shutters can be a large up-front investment, especially when installed by somebody else. It may take many years of burning energy with an AC to earn that back. Also maybe the home isn't even yours, but you are renting. The owner doesn't care about your energy bill.
- draven 2mo ago
  I thought it was more of a cultural thing, or perhaps enforced by the building code ? Here in France I've never seen a house or flat without shutters. In Bangkok, when I was looking for a condo, none of them had shutters. A cursory web search tells me shutters can influence the DPE ("diagnostic de performance énergétique".) A bad rating means you can't rent your property.
  - exe34 2mo ago
    Do shutters make it worse? How? Is it just a bad metric?
    - masklinn 2mo ago
      Since they’re using French for the rating, I’d think the shutters improve the score and that contributes to their pervasiveness. From a quick search, older versions of the DPE ignored shutters, modern ones take them in account and their effect ranges from neutral to positive depending on details (materials, insulation, fit). It’s not entirely clear if both high seasons are considered (insulation and fit I’d think a lot less critical in summer).

throw0101a 2mo ago

>> While all of these might offer some cooling in your home, nothing beats air conditioning. > By what measurement? […] The measure of the air's temperature. It does not matter if you have shutters: if the air outside is 30C then eventually the air inside will eventually get to 30C (good insulation will simply mean it takes longer). If your outside is >30C then the only way to keep your inside <30C is to transfer the heat (which an AC does via an evaporator, refrigerant, and a condensor).