5 ms·

Refactoring cuisine: how an Iraqi stew sailed to Singapore

72 points by infinitewalk 2mo ago

elhospitaler 2mo ago
[flagged]
roughly 2mo ago
I love these kinds of tales of cultural fusion, because they're so much the norm in human history, and yet we've got this weird idea of fixed identities, categories, and cultures - trace any food, any dance, any music or art back far enough and you're walking continents, and frequently not the ones you think.
- infinitewalk 2mo ago
  The interesting thing is, for a long time I didn't really think about it. I never thought about why I never saw this dish outside of my families dinner table as a kid, and later when I was an adult, I never really questioned what this oddly familiar but distant stew was in middle eastern restaurants. It was only when I moved out of home and decided to try and recreate it I realized how unique it was! Makes me wonder how many other similar stories exist in other peoples homes.
  - oliculipolicula 2mo ago
    Can I ask you about the calamansi? Filipinos tend to prefer them ripening (never fully ripe), but it looks like the unripe ones are more common in malay cuisine? Your recreation seem to have used store-bought juice? Did Rose's version not have the calamansi? The garnishing, was that cilantro? What choice of rice brings you back to the childhood? Thanks! This was quite eye-opening. The tiniest details are essential!! There are also other ethnic takes, like Kuah bamia/bamia kambing (close to the original,lamb; north Indian version would add yoghurt, South would be (fermented?)coconut milk?), nonya okra stew (Straits Chinese,adding tamarind like you mentioned, different spices)
    - infinitewalk 2mo ago
      > Can I ask you about the calamansi? Filipinos tend to prefer them ripening (never fully ripe), but it looks like the unripe ones are more common in malay cuisine? Your recreation seem to have used store-bought juice? I'm pretty sure I typically see them fully green when in Singapore, but not 100% sure. I tend to alternate between using calamansi (if I manage to find them), or instead the bottled calamansi extract (which still works pretty well!). > Did Rose's version not have the calamansi? By Rose's version are you referring to https://www.jewishfoodsociety.org/stories/the-flavors-of-iraq-india-and-singapore-meet-in-th https://www.jewishfoodsociety.org/stories/the-flavors-of-ira... ? If I recall, it doesn't include calamansi but instead lemon juice, I'm not sure if this is an ingredient substitution or not. I've tried making it with lemon juice, but it just misses the exact flavour profile I remember from my childhood. > The garnishing, was that cilantro? Yep, that is cilantro (I just happened to have some on hand). > like bamia kambing (close to the original,lamb; Indian version would add yoghurt), nonya okra stew (Chinese,adding tamarind like you mentioned, different spices) Thanks for mentioning these! I'm not too familiar with them, but would be keen to try them.
      - oliculipolicula 2mo ago
        Yes, that book. It could be that calamansis are not common in AU at that time, that makes sense. I think I saw it referenced in your recipe. The cilantro remind one of briyani, imho, I don't know if the briyani-likeness would make a difference? Here's one https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resources/khadijah-kuah-bamia https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resourc... I find it fascinating that the diff is almost only the "source of tartness"! Thanks! PS, your story could even make it into that site..
    - chanux 2mo ago
      Calamansi I got with Hokkien mee was green outside and yellow/oranage-ish inside. I assumed it's ripe since it was kinda sweet too. An aside: I used to not use the Calamansi in Hokkien Mee because I thought we don't really do sour in our mains in my origin cuisine. After I saw a friend squeeze (over a spoon to filter out the seeds) Clamansi, I tried it too and regretted all the times I did not add it.
- djtango 2mo ago
  My favourite is the food you get in Xi'an which is pretty distinct from what you'd ordinarily consider "Chinese" food (ie Sichuanese or Cantonese) The flatbreads, cumin and lamb dominance all speak to the Silk Road history...
Nursie 2mo ago
> For example, the paradox of Grandfather’s axe where the handle and the blade have long been replaced For a pop-culture reference, probably known mostly in the UK, see "Trigger's Broom". The character Trigger is a street sweeper and is given an award by the council for using the same broom for 20 years. Later he reveals the trick to good broom maintenance is to replace parts when they start to go, and says it has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles.
kazinator 2mo ago
> how an Iraqi stew sailed to Singapore Spoiler: it was a stewaway.
- infinitewalk 2mo ago
  Damn. That's a much better title
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
doubletwoyou 2mo ago
It’s interesting to note what ‘cultural staples and customs’ are actually a recent invention (in the grand scheme of things) or likewise popularized through corporations that advertised so hard that they embedded themselves into the very cultural fabric. Cf. hamburgers being maybe 100 years old; tomato sauce being only put on pasta in the late 18th century; ‘standard Italian’ not being codified until the unification of Italy in the late 19th century (one reason why Italian-Americans perhaps say capisch instead of capisci? Some southern accents dropping the -i! [really, they’re languages——languages are just dialects with an army]), the food that we call kimchi today only popularly containing peppers starting in the 19th century; and the whole thing with car companies in the United States tearing up tram tracks and lobbying for jaywalking to be considered a crime!
- decimalenough 2mo ago
  Fun fact: even today, kimchi (and food in general) in North Korea is less spicy than the South, because they've basically missed out on 50 years of culinary evolution. https://www.youngpioneertours.com/north-south-korean-kimchi/ https://www.youngpioneertours.com/north-south-korean-kimchi/ Likewise, while Japanese cuisine is generally not spicy at all, the few outliers like mentaiko generally originate from the southern regions like Kyushu and Okinawa that traded with Korea & China.
  - oliculipolicula 2mo ago
    Generally true that, but caveats specifically for condiments: (mustards are just more entrenched than peppers.) Wasabi can compete with peppers on spiciness (imho) Common condiment shichimi has pepper-- to-garishi, where the to- literally says "Tang (china)", meaning "foreign". And Sichuan pepper I think? What then would be the native spice, "karashi"? Brown mustard.. That said, there are properly native pepper variants like shishito. And the unnamed one that is in kanzuri https://youtube.com/shorts/1RoMOI8Hh-Q https://youtube.com/shorts/1RoMOI8Hh-Q (Sorry abt videoai, not mine)
- oliculipolicula 2mo ago
  Sicilian-Americans drop the final vowel, food example would be "proshut" in NJ But pizza would also be "modern" Today's sushi is from 19th C. Edo.., allegedly one person, Hanaya Yohei Is food.. "anti-Lindy"? (Maybe because innovations that are infectious tend to be universally beloved, quickly killing off their progenitors)
jnaina 2mo ago
Also known as Bamiya or Bamia (okra stew) among the Malay-Arab community in Singapore.
- throwaway198846 2mo ago
  But is the recipe the same or different?
  - jnaina 2mo ago
    Similar. It seems the dish had both Arab and Jewish roots. In colonial Singapore, both communities were small but left an outsized mark. https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resources/khadijah-kuah-bamia https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resourc...
    - alephnerd 2mo ago
      The Jewish community in Singapore is mostly Baghdadi (Iraqi Jews who immigrated to British India and later Singapore and Hong Kong). That's why it's the same recipe for Bamia.
breppp 2mo ago
Iraqi Jews had other stories of food migration. For example there is the curious fact where due to Iraqi Jews the falafel in Israel has Amba as a condiment, originally an Indian mango chutney
- greazy 2mo ago
  What's the deal with Amba eating in Iraq? It seems out of place as it's spicy source condiment. Okay... There's a whole Wikipedia about this topic! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amba_(condiment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amba_(condiment) Wow I have to tell my dad about this (he's going to not like this lol)
  - throwaway198846 2mo ago
    Why?
te_chris 2mo ago
This is a lovely piece of writing. Well done.
- infinitewalk 2mo ago
  thank you!
redwood 2mo ago
Another great example of this is the divergent paths of both pizza and mozzarella en route from Italy to the United States and Argentina respectively. To an American eye the fact that Argentine Pizza is almost cake-like in texture and the fact that mozzarella is yellow are both remarkable. Even more remarkable the fact that to the Argentina those are simply natural realities
janpeuker 2mo ago
Loved the acknowledgement and irony of the maids. I used to have a Kalamansi tree and it smells amazing.

72 points by infinitewalk 2mo ago

[flagged]

I love these kinds of tales of cultural fusion, because they're so much the norm in human history, and yet we've got this weird idea of fixed identities, categories, and cultures - trace any food, any dance, any music or art back far enough and you're walking continents, and frequently not the ones you think.

infinitewalk 2mo ago
The interesting thing is, for a long time I didn't really think about it. I never thought about why I never saw this dish outside of my families dinner table as a kid, and later when I was an adult, I never really questioned what this oddly familiar but distant stew was in middle eastern restaurants. It was only when I moved out of home and decided to try and recreate it I realized how unique it was! Makes me wonder how many other similar stories exist in other peoples homes.
- oliculipolicula 2mo ago
  Can I ask you about the calamansi? Filipinos tend to prefer them ripening (never fully ripe), but it looks like the unripe ones are more common in malay cuisine? Your recreation seem to have used store-bought juice? Did Rose's version not have the calamansi? The garnishing, was that cilantro? What choice of rice brings you back to the childhood? Thanks! This was quite eye-opening. The tiniest details are essential!! There are also other ethnic takes, like Kuah bamia/bamia kambing (close to the original,lamb; north Indian version would add yoghurt, South would be (fermented?)coconut milk?), nonya okra stew (Straits Chinese,adding tamarind like you mentioned, different spices)
  - infinitewalk 2mo ago
    > Can I ask you about the calamansi? Filipinos tend to prefer them ripening (never fully ripe), but it looks like the unripe ones are more common in malay cuisine? Your recreation seem to have used store-bought juice? I'm pretty sure I typically see them fully green when in Singapore, but not 100% sure. I tend to alternate between using calamansi (if I manage to find them), or instead the bottled calamansi extract (which still works pretty well!). > Did Rose's version not have the calamansi? By Rose's version are you referring to https://www.jewishfoodsociety.org/stories/the-flavors-of-iraq-india-and-singapore-meet-in-th https://www.jewishfoodsociety.org/stories/the-flavors-of-ira... ? If I recall, it doesn't include calamansi but instead lemon juice, I'm not sure if this is an ingredient substitution or not. I've tried making it with lemon juice, but it just misses the exact flavour profile I remember from my childhood. > The garnishing, was that cilantro? Yep, that is cilantro (I just happened to have some on hand). > like bamia kambing (close to the original,lamb; Indian version would add yoghurt), nonya okra stew (Chinese,adding tamarind like you mentioned, different spices) Thanks for mentioning these! I'm not too familiar with them, but would be keen to try them.
    - oliculipolicula 2mo ago
      Yes, that book. It could be that calamansis are not common in AU at that time, that makes sense. I think I saw it referenced in your recipe. The cilantro remind one of briyani, imho, I don't know if the briyani-likeness would make a difference? Here's one https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resources/khadijah-kuah-bamia https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resourc... I find it fascinating that the diff is almost only the "source of tartness"! Thanks! PS, your story could even make it into that site..
  - chanux 2mo ago
    Calamansi I got with Hokkien mee was green outside and yellow/oranage-ish inside. I assumed it's ripe since it was kinda sweet too. An aside: I used to not use the Calamansi in Hokkien Mee because I thought we don't really do sour in our mains in my origin cuisine. After I saw a friend squeeze (over a spoon to filter out the seeds) Clamansi, I tried it too and regretted all the times I did not add it.
djtango 2mo ago
My favourite is the food you get in Xi'an which is pretty distinct from what you'd ordinarily consider "Chinese" food (ie Sichuanese or Cantonese) The flatbreads, cumin and lamb dominance all speak to the Silk Road history...

Nursie 2mo ago

> For example, the paradox of Grandfather’s axe where the handle and the blade have long been replaced For a pop-culture reference, probably known mostly in the UK, see "Trigger's Broom". The character Trigger is a street sweeper and is given an award by the council for using the same broom for 20 years. Later he reveals the trick to good broom maintenance is to replace parts when they start to go, and says it has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles.

kazinator 2mo ago

> how an Iraqi stew sailed to Singapore Spoiler: it was a stewaway.

infinitewalk 2mo ago
Damn. That's a much better title

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

doubletwoyou 2mo ago

It’s interesting to note what ‘cultural staples and customs’ are actually a recent invention (in the grand scheme of things) or likewise popularized through corporations that advertised so hard that they embedded themselves into the very cultural fabric. Cf. hamburgers being maybe 100 years old; tomato sauce being only put on pasta in the late 18th century; ‘standard Italian’ not being codified until the unification of Italy in the late 19th century (one reason why Italian-Americans perhaps say capisch instead of capisci? Some southern accents dropping the -i! [really, they’re languages——languages are just dialects with an army]), the food that we call kimchi today only popularly containing peppers starting in the 19th century; and the whole thing with car companies in the United States tearing up tram tracks and lobbying for jaywalking to be considered a crime!

decimalenough 2mo ago
Fun fact: even today, kimchi (and food in general) in North Korea is less spicy than the South, because they've basically missed out on 50 years of culinary evolution. https://www.youngpioneertours.com/north-south-korean-kimchi/ https://www.youngpioneertours.com/north-south-korean-kimchi/ Likewise, while Japanese cuisine is generally not spicy at all, the few outliers like mentaiko generally originate from the southern regions like Kyushu and Okinawa that traded with Korea & China.
- oliculipolicula 2mo ago
  Generally true that, but caveats specifically for condiments: (mustards are just more entrenched than peppers.) Wasabi can compete with peppers on spiciness (imho) Common condiment shichimi has pepper-- to-garishi, where the to- literally says "Tang (china)", meaning "foreign". And Sichuan pepper I think? What then would be the native spice, "karashi"? Brown mustard.. That said, there are properly native pepper variants like shishito. And the unnamed one that is in kanzuri https://youtube.com/shorts/1RoMOI8Hh-Q https://youtube.com/shorts/1RoMOI8Hh-Q (Sorry abt videoai, not mine)
oliculipolicula 2mo ago
Sicilian-Americans drop the final vowel, food example would be "proshut" in NJ But pizza would also be "modern" Today's sushi is from 19th C. Edo.., allegedly one person, Hanaya Yohei Is food.. "anti-Lindy"? (Maybe because innovations that are infectious tend to be universally beloved, quickly killing off their progenitors)

jnaina 2mo ago

Also known as Bamiya or Bamia (okra stew) among the Malay-Arab community in Singapore.

throwaway198846 2mo ago
But is the recipe the same or different?
- jnaina 2mo ago
  Similar. It seems the dish had both Arab and Jewish roots. In colonial Singapore, both communities were small but left an outsized mark. https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resources/khadijah-kuah-bamia https://www.peranakanmuseum.nhb.gov.sg/learn/digital-resourc...
  - alephnerd 2mo ago
    The Jewish community in Singapore is mostly Baghdadi (Iraqi Jews who immigrated to British India and later Singapore and Hong Kong). That's why it's the same recipe for Bamia.

breppp 2mo ago

Iraqi Jews had other stories of food migration. For example there is the curious fact where due to Iraqi Jews the falafel in Israel has Amba as a condiment, originally an Indian mango chutney

greazy 2mo ago
What's the deal with Amba eating in Iraq? It seems out of place as it's spicy source condiment. Okay... There's a whole Wikipedia about this topic! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amba_(condiment) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amba_(condiment) Wow I have to tell my dad about this (he's going to not like this lol)
- throwaway198846 2mo ago
  Why?

te_chris 2mo ago

This is a lovely piece of writing. Well done.

infinitewalk 2mo ago
thank you!

redwood 2mo ago

Another great example of this is the divergent paths of both pizza and mozzarella en route from Italy to the United States and Argentina respectively. To an American eye the fact that Argentine Pizza is almost cake-like in texture and the fact that mozzarella is yellow are both remarkable. Even more remarkable the fact that to the Argentina those are simply natural realities

janpeuker 2mo ago

Loved the acknowledgement and irony of the maids. I used to have a Kalamansi tree and it smells amazing.