6 ms·

And if none of the previous legitimate sovereign authorities of that territory are interested to administer its present-day property rights claims? The people o

by gershy 2mo ago

And if none of the previous legitimate sovereign authorities of that territory are interested to administer its present-day property rights claims? The people of that land are effectively stateless, no?

hardbass 2mo ago
Again, I should clarify that I am speaking of the justification not the practical reality which is where at present whoever has more firepower will manage to own the place. Even if no previous state is interested in it, it does not just make the land free for all morally and justly. It also applies to the houses of Jews that were stolen at end of WW2, it is recent enough I believe it should be restored and any present owner should be compensated and let out.
- gershy 2mo ago
  Justice (justification) and practical reality are fundamentally linked. If no previous state is interested, the land stateless - correct?
  - hardbass 2mo ago
    As I said the practical reality of who has more firepower is a different issue. It might as well be China who owns that patch of land 50 years from now for all we know.
    - gershy 2mo ago
      I'm losing your overall point. You imply indifference when you say "it might as well be china". My followup would be, "you don't seem indifferent about israel" Then I would expect you to say, "well israel is particularly illegal" And I would say, "how, particularly?" And it seems you'd say "israel is illegally invading the west bank" So I would say, "whose sovereign territory is it invading?" And you would say "that of the former ottoman and/or british empire" And I'd say "then the west bank has no sovereign authority; those you listed have exited" Is that a fair portrayal of how our perspectives line up? To me, this establishes that specific reason for opposing israel is invalid. If you still feel opposed to israel there are plenty of other reasons you could find - but this specific reason is invalid, isn't it?
      - hardbass 2mo ago
        Yes, China will also be a colonial power in this case. And as I have said before, I have no issues with colonialism itself. China will be a far better steward of this shithole of a mess as it has no emotions toward any party and is very business oriented. Israel is illegal simply because it in very recent and active memory illicitly terrorized Britain and stole British land illegally through vile extreme terrorism and ungrateful torture of its very benefactor's people. A present state structure existing or not is irrelevant if people are already living there, that land has no valid legal deeds from Israel and they are invading others property. Where even is Israel? Israel hates defining its map, which conveniently seems to always expand to where people are already living, against their wishes. Even if we accept the Israeli government as valid, where are the definitions of its borders and the land grant slips for these acts of robbery? If you feel that region is stateless, and since you have presented no objection as of yet to Israeli squatters killing and displacing the people living there, I would hope you can say you are just as much okay with the locals repelling and killing the invaders. Since it is after all neutral grounds. Due to the state policies and culture, the region has birthed (I say with no ill will toward them beyond the usual disgust one has for a criminal element committing murder and property crime) a distorted populace of a culture of thievery and ungratefulness, forever thieving, forever ungrateful, forever lying. Through obviously no fault of race or blood, rather the filtering effect of the governance system and culture created by a formerly traumatized group in WW2. For instance the eagerness to accept any person of Jewish descent as immigrant leads to, as an unwanted side effect, criminals of all stripes fleeing to Israel and then lawyers pausing or preventing their extradition for years. A sense of unearned right to other peoples lands and properties, starting from the vile reaction to Britain itself closing the borders and changing the immigration policy of land that it literally owns, behaving as if its their own land. Nazi Germany was deprogrammable without too much effort as it was only a few years. This problem has been going on for a few generations already and is going to take immense effort to deprogram back to normalcy. The squatters invading and stealing others lands are of course widely documented, loutish teens with the support of some IDF member entering and robbing someones house or farm. This is part of the same history and culture of ungratefulness and sense that everything belongs to them.
        2mo ago

by gershy 2mo ago

hardbass 2mo ago

Again, I should clarify that I am speaking of the justification not the practical reality which is where at present whoever has more firepower will manage to own the place. Even if no previous state is interested in it, it does not just make the land free for all morally and justly. It also applies to the houses of Jews that were stolen at end of WW2, it is recent enough I believe it should be restored and any present owner should be compensated and let out.

gershy 2mo ago
Justice (justification) and practical reality are fundamentally linked. If no previous state is interested, the land stateless - correct?
- hardbass 2mo ago
  As I said the practical reality of who has more firepower is a different issue. It might as well be China who owns that patch of land 50 years from now for all we know.
  - gershy 2mo ago
    I'm losing your overall point. You imply indifference when you say "it might as well be china". My followup would be, "you don't seem indifferent about israel" Then I would expect you to say, "well israel is particularly illegal" And I would say, "how, particularly?" And it seems you'd say "israel is illegally invading the west bank" So I would say, "whose sovereign territory is it invading?" And you would say "that of the former ottoman and/or british empire" And I'd say "then the west bank has no sovereign authority; those you listed have exited" Is that a fair portrayal of how our perspectives line up? To me, this establishes that specific reason for opposing israel is invalid. If you still feel opposed to israel there are plenty of other reasons you could find - but this specific reason is invalid, isn't it?
    - hardbass 2mo ago
      Yes, China will also be a colonial power in this case. And as I have said before, I have no issues with colonialism itself. China will be a far better steward of this shithole of a mess as it has no emotions toward any party and is very business oriented. Israel is illegal simply because it in very recent and active memory illicitly terrorized Britain and stole British land illegally through vile extreme terrorism and ungrateful torture of its very benefactor's people. A present state structure existing or not is irrelevant if people are already living there, that land has no valid legal deeds from Israel and they are invading others property. Where even is Israel? Israel hates defining its map, which conveniently seems to always expand to where people are already living, against their wishes. Even if we accept the Israeli government as valid, where are the definitions of its borders and the land grant slips for these acts of robbery? If you feel that region is stateless, and since you have presented no objection as of yet to Israeli squatters killing and displacing the people living there, I would hope you can say you are just as much okay with the locals repelling and killing the invaders. Since it is after all neutral grounds. Due to the state policies and culture, the region has birthed (I say with no ill will toward them beyond the usual disgust one has for a criminal element committing murder and property crime) a distorted populace of a culture of thievery and ungratefulness, forever thieving, forever ungrateful, forever lying. Through obviously no fault of race or blood, rather the filtering effect of the governance system and culture created by a formerly traumatized group in WW2. For instance the eagerness to accept any person of Jewish descent as immigrant leads to, as an unwanted side effect, criminals of all stripes fleeing to Israel and then lawyers pausing or preventing their extradition for years. A sense of unearned right to other peoples lands and properties, starting from the vile reaction to Britain itself closing the borders and changing the immigration policy of land that it literally owns, behaving as if its their own land. Nazi Germany was deprogrammable without too much effort as it was only a few years. This problem has been going on for a few generations already and is going to take immense effort to deprogram back to normalcy. The squatters invading and stealing others lands are of course widely documented, loutish teens with the support of some IDF member entering and robbing someones house or farm. This is part of the same history and culture of ungratefulness and sense that everything belongs to them.
      - 2mo ago