5 ms·

Can you explain more about how the front end aspect works? I'm not clear how the front end code could by TypeScript without a build step, unless I'm misreading.

austin-cheney 2mo ago
Node strips types on all imported code regardless of where that code executes.
- root_axis 2mo ago
  Node doesn't run in the browser.
  - umvi 2mo ago
    Presumably Node is the server (back end), and when the browser requests a TS file, Node is stripping the types before serving it to the browser.
    - root_axis 2mo ago
      That presumption is wrong, and doesn't quite make sense if you think about it.
      - umvi 2mo ago
        Why doesn't it make sense? I actually do exactly this in my own setup, but with golang instead of Node.
        root_axis 2mo ago
        I don't know what tooling you're using in go, but node does not do any kind of transformation to assets it serves over http. Running logic written in TypeScript on the front end requires some kind of bundler so that the browser can run the code.
        umvi 2mo ago
        You don't need a bundler, just a type stripper. And yeah you need a middleware to perform the type stripping, the server won't do it automatically, but it's like 10 lines of backend code. The basic flow would be something like: 1. Browser requests /js/foo.js 2. Server middleware checks if /js/foo.ts exists 3. If yes, server middleware strips types from the file before returning it In golang I use the go package github.com/evanw/esbuild[1] to do type stripping on the fly. The middleware looks like this: ``` return esbuild.Transform(string(fileBytes), esbuild.TransformOptions{ Loader: esbuild.LoaderTS, Format: esbuild.FormatESModule, }) ``` It only takes a few microseconds and I don't need any bundlers or tsc or anything like that. Everything on my frontend is 100% vanilla TS; I make changes directly to TS and then hit refresh in my browser and the changes are reflected instantly without needing a bundler or even node/npm for that matter. Note: for this setup to work, your front end TS has to use ES modules import/export which browsers natively support. If you try to use CommonJS or something like that, you would start needing a bundler again because browsers can't resolve "require" statements. In node it should be even easier than Go because Node added native type stripping starting with v22[2] But even on older versions of Node, a type stripping middleware would still be very easy to implement[3][4]. [1] https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/evanw/esbuild https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/evanw/esbuild [2] https://nodejs.org/api/module.html#modulestriptypescripttypescode-options https://nodejs.org/api/module.html#modulestriptypescripttype... [3] https://github.com/bloomberg/ts-blank-space https://github.com/bloomberg/ts-blank-space [4] https://esbuild.github.io/api/#js-async https://esbuild.github.io/api/#js-async
        root_axis 2mo ago
        > It only takes a few microseconds and I don't need any bundlers And yet you're using one. Esbuild is one of the most popular bundlers in the js ecosystem, your workflow is functionally identical to any other bundler workflow except that the example you provided is worse than the typical workflow because it builds the ts file on every request rather than just once when the source code changes.
        umvi 2mo ago
        > And yet you're using one I'm using a TS type stripper API from a go package inside the server. I'm not actually doing any "bundling" which implies resolving imports, tree shaking, combining multiple files into one, minification, uglification, etc. I'm strictly stripping out types and serving what's left directly to the browser. This costs less than 1ms of cpu time on a cold load (and usually costs nothing because of front-end caching/etags) Look, I don't want to argue with you. Just sharing my setup. I develop medical device software which means dependencies are very expensive because they incur regulatory burden. SBOMs and associated CVEs have to be tracked and reported to the FDA. My TS/golang stack means: - My docker images can be from scratch or from busybox with a statically linked go binary - My frontend can be vanilla TS with zero dependencies (npm or otherwise) - Debugging is dead simple: set breakpoints directly in dev tools and it's WYSIWYG (no map files needed, etc) - Feedback is instantaneous. If I change a file in TS and hit refresh, the change is reflected instantly (compare to bloated Vue/React shops I've seen where every change requires a 10 second frontend compile pipeline to run before you can get feedback in the browser)
  - austin-cheney 2mo ago
    I am aware and it’s not what I said.
    - root_axis 2mo ago
      You literally said "this even includes front-end code for the browser". So what exactly are you referring to here?
      - austin-cheney 2mo ago
        I write all my application code in TypeScript, even if it is for the browser. I then import all that code into Node regardless of whether it will execute in Node. All code that will not execute in Node needs to be wrapped in a function for safety, because global references like "document" or "window" will not work in Node.
        deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
        root_axis 2mo ago
        You write all your code in TS - great. You run node with the TS support - great. That doesn't explain how your front-end TS code is transformed into JS. You seem to be suggesting that node does it automatically, but it doesn't. The explanation of your setup isn't adding up.
        austin-cheney 2mo ago
        > That doesn't explain how your front-end TS code is transformed into JS. Node will do that at run time. Its automatic. Functions do not have to execute to receive this benefit. They just have to be imported. Ensure you are using a very recent version of Node.
        root_axis 2mo ago
        Yes, but how does your http server deliver the imported code to the front-end? Are you using some type of streaming bundler that does real time builds? Something isn't making sense here.

austin-cheney 2mo ago

Node strips types on all imported code regardless of where that code executes.

root_axis 2mo ago
Node doesn't run in the browser.
- umvi 2mo ago
  Presumably Node is the server (back end), and when the browser requests a TS file, Node is stripping the types before serving it to the browser.
  - root_axis 2mo ago
    That presumption is wrong, and doesn't quite make sense if you think about it.
    - umvi 2mo ago
      Why doesn't it make sense? I actually do exactly this in my own setup, but with golang instead of Node.
      - root_axis 2mo ago
        I don't know what tooling you're using in go, but node does not do any kind of transformation to assets it serves over http. Running logic written in TypeScript on the front end requires some kind of bundler so that the browser can run the code.
        umvi 2mo ago
        You don't need a bundler, just a type stripper. And yeah you need a middleware to perform the type stripping, the server won't do it automatically, but it's like 10 lines of backend code. The basic flow would be something like: 1. Browser requests /js/foo.js 2. Server middleware checks if /js/foo.ts exists 3. If yes, server middleware strips types from the file before returning it In golang I use the go package github.com/evanw/esbuild[1] to do type stripping on the fly. The middleware looks like this: ``` return esbuild.Transform(string(fileBytes), esbuild.TransformOptions{ Loader: esbuild.LoaderTS, Format: esbuild.FormatESModule, }) ``` It only takes a few microseconds and I don't need any bundlers or tsc or anything like that. Everything on my frontend is 100% vanilla TS; I make changes directly to TS and then hit refresh in my browser and the changes are reflected instantly without needing a bundler or even node/npm for that matter. Note: for this setup to work, your front end TS has to use ES modules import/export which browsers natively support. If you try to use CommonJS or something like that, you would start needing a bundler again because browsers can't resolve "require" statements. In node it should be even easier than Go because Node added native type stripping starting with v22[2] But even on older versions of Node, a type stripping middleware would still be very easy to implement[3][4]. [1] https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/evanw/esbuild https://pkg.go.dev/github.com/evanw/esbuild [2] https://nodejs.org/api/module.html#modulestriptypescripttypescode-options https://nodejs.org/api/module.html#modulestriptypescripttype... [3] https://github.com/bloomberg/ts-blank-space https://github.com/bloomberg/ts-blank-space [4] https://esbuild.github.io/api/#js-async https://esbuild.github.io/api/#js-async
        root_axis 2mo ago
        > It only takes a few microseconds and I don't need any bundlers And yet you're using one. Esbuild is one of the most popular bundlers in the js ecosystem, your workflow is functionally identical to any other bundler workflow except that the example you provided is worse than the typical workflow because it builds the ts file on every request rather than just once when the source code changes.
        umvi 2mo ago
        > And yet you're using one I'm using a TS type stripper API from a go package inside the server. I'm not actually doing any "bundling" which implies resolving imports, tree shaking, combining multiple files into one, minification, uglification, etc. I'm strictly stripping out types and serving what's left directly to the browser. This costs less than 1ms of cpu time on a cold load (and usually costs nothing because of front-end caching/etags) Look, I don't want to argue with you. Just sharing my setup. I develop medical device software which means dependencies are very expensive because they incur regulatory burden. SBOMs and associated CVEs have to be tracked and reported to the FDA. My TS/golang stack means: - My docker images can be from scratch or from busybox with a statically linked go binary - My frontend can be vanilla TS with zero dependencies (npm or otherwise) - Debugging is dead simple: set breakpoints directly in dev tools and it's WYSIWYG (no map files needed, etc) - Feedback is instantaneous. If I change a file in TS and hit refresh, the change is reflected instantly (compare to bloated Vue/React shops I've seen where every change requires a 10 second frontend compile pipeline to run before you can get feedback in the browser)
- austin-cheney 2mo ago
  I am aware and it’s not what I said.
  - root_axis 2mo ago
    You literally said "this even includes front-end code for the browser". So what exactly are you referring to here?
    - austin-cheney 2mo ago
      I write all my application code in TypeScript, even if it is for the browser. I then import all that code into Node regardless of whether it will execute in Node. All code that will not execute in Node needs to be wrapped in a function for safety, because global references like "document" or "window" will not work in Node.
      - deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
      - root_axis 2mo ago
        You write all your code in TS - great. You run node with the TS support - great. That doesn't explain how your front-end TS code is transformed into JS. You seem to be suggesting that node does it automatically, but it doesn't. The explanation of your setup isn't adding up.
        austin-cheney 2mo ago
        > That doesn't explain how your front-end TS code is transformed into JS. Node will do that at run time. Its automatic. Functions do not have to execute to receive this benefit. They just have to be imported. Ensure you are using a very recent version of Node.
        root_axis 2mo ago
        Yes, but how does your http server deliver the imported code to the front-end? Are you using some type of streaming bundler that does real time builds? Something isn't making sense here.