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> I am afraid the author confuses familiarity with proof that his tools are better. Literally NOT what I was implying or even said anywhere. Quote me where I s

> I am afraid the author confuses familiarity with proof that his tools are better. Literally NOT what I was implying or even said anywhere. Quote me where I said anything like that. To quote myself: > What baffles me is that so many people treat that friction—the effort of working around a tool’s limitations—as the “fun” part, and then advertise it as evidence that the tool is great. This has nothing to do with why I or another person one tool over another, but rather treating the flaws as if they are things to have a puzzle game to work around.

sph 2mo ago
People don't use vim because they enjoy puzzle solving. I don't even know how you got this conception. People use vim because they are effective at editing with vim, period, just like you are effective with Sublime Text. People don't use Linux because they enjoy tweaking config files and everybody else has too busy a life to do that. That's a silly misconception and veiled attempt at feeling superior at those time-wasters. > rather treating the flaws as if they are things to have a puzzle game to work around Case in point. Good tools are indeed invisible, but the arguments the article is built on are very shaky and honestly just sound from someone that didn't spend much time with other tools, but still has strong opinions about them.
- zaphar 2mo ago
  I do know quite a few people who use vim because they do enjoy the puzzle. So there are absolutely people as he describes. Saying that there aren't people like that just undermines your point.
  - sph 2mo ago
    Geez, I’m not saying there are none. I’m saying it’s silly to characterise it as an editor for puzzle lovers. You knowing ‘quite a few people’ can’t be generalised to the millions that use vim daily.
    - jt2190 2mo ago
      The article discuses that specific subset of users who are into puzzle solving, so we should ground this discussion around that point and not fall into the “tool x is good/bad” pointless debate.
      - rrvsh 2mo ago
        It wholly does not. It in no way qualifies the statement that people who use tools with "more friction" (the unsound assumption under attack) because they view it as a puzzle game as a subset of the total users of that tool, and devotes zero time to discussing any alternative interpretetations of why someone would do so.
        jt2190 2mo ago
        > If people find vim, emacs, or whatever genuinely good and productive, I’m not going to criticize them for using it. People are most comfortable with what they know. But for the people I am discussing, that same familiarity blinds them to their tools’ flaws, and leads them to celebrate those flaws, flaunting them as games.
        rrvsh 2mo ago
        This reinforces my point. Even where they "qualify" their statement, they still reduce their mindset to a homogeneous "I like Puzzle "
- gingerBill 2mo ago
  > People don't use vim because they enjoy puzzle solving. I didn't say that either nor even imply it, and you know that when you quote me afterwards. So huh?!?! > People don't use Linux because they enjoy tweaking config files and everybody else has too busy a life to do that. A lot of people, including younger myself, got into Linux and Android BECAUSE it was configurable and customizable. And even played around with all of the customizations because it was fun to do. But it didn't really make my general experience better because I was forever trying to correct something I should have to correct in the first place. I am not sure how much clearer I can be in the article or in my replies to comments.
  - jibal 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    - sph 2mo ago
      You can be less of a coward and reply to my comment, since you are talking about me personally, rather than mentioning me by name elsewhere. gingerBill and I were disagreeing, sure, but at least we were arguing on topic. I fail to see what is insightful about your comment than just pointing and saying 'get a load of this guy.' Thanks for your input, you can take a seat now.
      - jibal 2mo ago
        I wasn't talking to you. Flagged.
        jibal 2mo ago
        The pompous response from zahlman is at least as bad ... accusing me of "casting aspersions" and then saying that I was "called out" by a comment that calls me a coward and tells me to "take a seat"? Can one possibly be more lacking in evenhandedness? I forget that my HN frontend has a mute feature ... applying it to both of these.
        zahlman 2mo ago

sph 2mo ago

People don't use vim because they enjoy puzzle solving. I don't even know how you got this conception. People use vim because they are effective at editing with vim, period, just like you are effective with Sublime Text. People don't use Linux because they enjoy tweaking config files and everybody else has too busy a life to do that. That's a silly misconception and veiled attempt at feeling superior at those time-wasters. > rather treating the flaws as if they are things to have a puzzle game to work around Case in point. Good tools are indeed invisible, but the arguments the article is built on are very shaky and honestly just sound from someone that didn't spend much time with other tools, but still has strong opinions about them.

zaphar 2mo ago
I do know quite a few people who use vim because they do enjoy the puzzle. So there are absolutely people as he describes. Saying that there aren't people like that just undermines your point.
- sph 2mo ago
  Geez, I’m not saying there are none. I’m saying it’s silly to characterise it as an editor for puzzle lovers. You knowing ‘quite a few people’ can’t be generalised to the millions that use vim daily.
  - jt2190 2mo ago
    The article discuses that specific subset of users who are into puzzle solving, so we should ground this discussion around that point and not fall into the “tool x is good/bad” pointless debate.
    - rrvsh 2mo ago
      It wholly does not. It in no way qualifies the statement that people who use tools with "more friction" (the unsound assumption under attack) because they view it as a puzzle game as a subset of the total users of that tool, and devotes zero time to discussing any alternative interpretetations of why someone would do so.
      - jt2190 2mo ago
        > If people find vim, emacs, or whatever genuinely good and productive, I’m not going to criticize them for using it. People are most comfortable with what they know. But for the people I am discussing, that same familiarity blinds them to their tools’ flaws, and leads them to celebrate those flaws, flaunting them as games.
        rrvsh 2mo ago
        This reinforces my point. Even where they "qualify" their statement, they still reduce their mindset to a homogeneous "I like Puzzle "
gingerBill 2mo ago
> People don't use vim because they enjoy puzzle solving. I didn't say that either nor even imply it, and you know that when you quote me afterwards. So huh?!?! > People don't use Linux because they enjoy tweaking config files and everybody else has too busy a life to do that. A lot of people, including younger myself, got into Linux and Android BECAUSE it was configurable and customizable. And even played around with all of the customizations because it was fun to do. But it didn't really make my general experience better because I was forever trying to correct something I should have to correct in the first place. I am not sure how much clearer I can be in the article or in my replies to comments.
- jibal 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - sph 2mo ago
    You can be less of a coward and reply to my comment, since you are talking about me personally, rather than mentioning me by name elsewhere. gingerBill and I were disagreeing, sure, but at least we were arguing on topic. I fail to see what is insightful about your comment than just pointing and saying 'get a load of this guy.' Thanks for your input, you can take a seat now.
    - jibal 2mo ago
      I wasn't talking to you. Flagged.
      - jibal 2mo ago
        The pompous response from zahlman is at least as bad ... accusing me of "casting aspersions" and then saying that I was "called out" by a comment that calls me a coward and tells me to "take a seat"? Can one possibly be more lacking in evenhandedness? I forget that my HN frontend has a mute feature ... applying it to both of these.
      - zahlman 2mo ago