6 ms·

Any time now even the most pro-european EU defender will realise that what was once a trade union has slowly transformed itself into an undemocratic, bureaucrat

Any time now even the most pro-european EU defender will realise that what was once a trade union has slowly transformed itself into an undemocratic, bureaucratic monster.

joe_mamba 2mo ago
Only in some bubbles. But most normies I know are massive EU fanboys and showing them the malicious things the EU is doing, they just shrug at best, or call you a Putin supporter at worst. They'll only realize this when the jackboot is on their neck. But probably not even then because in some EU countries government obedience is like a religion.
- NikolaNovak 2mo ago
  What is "normies" in this context? I'm neurodivergent, and on various nerdom bell curve tails, including know more than averga bear about technology societal implications and misuses, but I still wouldn't use that term; here in particular, it seems a strong pejorative for anybody who disagrees with your world view :-/
  - joe_mamba 2mo ago
    >What is "normies" in this context? normie = normal "average" people; People who aren't terminally online and up to date on tech and politics drama. Exactly the ones oblivious to negative things the EU is doing in the background, because stuff like Eurovision or the World Cup takes up more of their attentions span than complex tech or politics. >here in particular, it seems a strong pejorative Only because that's how you choose to see it. > for anybody who disagrees with your world view So having a world view where government surveillance state should NOT be OK makes me the bad guy?
- gorgoiler 2mo ago
  I recommend my own personal democracy metric: your level of democracy is proportional to how easily you can shout “moron!” at your representative and have them hear you. Do you know who they are, can you find them at a public meeting, and will they be able to hear you? For the EU, all three combine to give a pretty low score. As we’re seeing in the UK right now, if you stump up £500 and find ten people to counter-sign your candidacy, you can even run against your MP as a novelty candidate. If you choose your novelty name right you also get to stand next to them at the alphabetically-ordered result announcement. Compare with comatose Kentucky senators on their deathbed or EU commissioners based in a country with French train signs. Neither are insurmountable obstacles to democracy — hold up a sign? Google Translate? — but, by my metric, they are lesser options to something more local and accountable. I’m sure, back in the day, rural folk took umbrage at having to ride their donkey to the local town just to be able to throw cowpats at their despised burghers. We of course can do it on TikTok nowadays but nothing beats yelling in person.
  - realityking 2mo ago
    EU commissioners are similar to minsters/secretaries in national governments. My chance of getting within earshot of German federal minister are only slightly better than those of an EU minister - especially those that are not also members of parliament. But if I’m unhappy with EU policies I can talk to a member of the EU parliament (and yes I know two of the members from my city) or I can talk to a member of the Bundestag since national governments have a large role in the EU. In the end, my voice is tiny. Which is expected, after all I’m just one of over 450 million people living here.
  - selfmodruntime 2mo ago
    I would wager a good amount of money that below 1%, maybe even lower, could name the 5 most basic EU institutions and how they intertwine.
- selfmodruntime 2mo ago
  That is because they are so far removed from the actual proceedings and processes of the EU.
Flere-Imsaho 2mo ago
Here in the UK, a large proportion of the population still think the EU is a good idea... Despite all the evidence proving otherwise.
- Lio 2mo ago
  I know I do. I think the main purpose of the EU is to prevent wars between European states by providing a forum for compromise and cooperation. I’d say it’s succeeded in that nicely since its founding. Not one war between member states despite ongoing disputes. Seems like a very good idea. I hate this law though, it’s undemocratic.
  - rayiner 2mo ago
    Okay, but couldn’t a more transparent and accountable structure have accomplished the same result? Why do you need a system with seven different bodies, more than one of which can make what’s effectively laws? For example, why have an elected parliament that can’t even originate law, but an unelected commission that can make regulations that are effectively laws?
    - NikolaNovak 2mo ago
      That's implementation details though; one can absolutely think that "EU is a good idea" and "specific EU systems need improving" simultaneously, without contradiction. It's like thinking "I like Canada and am a proud Canadian, though I think there's still a lot of inequality and many policies can be improved upon and we can certainly be more efficient".
      - rayiner 2mo ago
        I understand, but my question is directed to the second point. Even assuming people like the EU in principle, it's constitutional structure seems bizarre and in need of major reform, at least from my American viewpoint. But there doesn't seem to be any movement to "mend it, don't end it." Do most EU supporters also think the constitutional structure of the EU is fine as-is?
Mountain_Skies 2mo ago
A surprisingly large amount of people are quite alright with that as long as they perceive that those undemocratic processes are producing the end results they desire. It's not unique to the EU, though they do play this game very well, or even to this time period. Once the powers have been granted, the public has only limited ability to revoke the power, with many of them easily swayed that it's good for this power to exist by having a red meat issue thrown to them to chew on as a distraction.
- gwerbin 2mo ago
  The USA is a nice demonstration of how far it can go if you can manufacture enough "red meat issues" and keep going for decades.
gorwell 2mo ago
Reddit still thinks the EU represents democracy.
- guelo 2mo ago
  Reddit is one of the few remaining platforms where reach is determined democratically. You demean that populous by calling it the singular "reddit", as if it's a single hive mind. But you'll probably get your way, I imagine the billionaire censorship campaign will come for it too eventually. Then you'll only ever get to hear thoughts you agree with, glorious day ey?
  - canadiantim 2mo ago
    Reddit is the most censored platform out there… posts and users that are not aligned with subreddit mods get banned or deleted prolifically. Subreddits that do not align similarly soon find themselves banned
    - HNisCIS 2mo ago
      Idk if many people remember how Reddit was when it started, its whole draw was that it was a bunch of relatively intelligent/friendly western internet people who liked to kinda role play as a hive mind. I wouldn't call it the most censored platform, but it still has vestiges of its old self, particularly with respect to philosophy and politics.
    - intended 2mo ago
      Subreddits get banned for egregious shit. Reddit stays on the side of letting subs up, rather than banning. Reddit has made it harder for mods to find out which subs you are active in, so that you can’t be banned for activity in subs that are in cold wars with each other.
      - selfmodruntime 2mo ago
        Nonsurprisingly, their leniency exists in a cycle that depends on who's in power in the US government.
onetimeusename 2mo ago
It wasn't really a trade union. It's purpose was to stop the re-emergence of something like the Nazis and to prevent wars. I don't think it's instincts were ever really democratic.

Any time now even the most pro-european EU defender will realise that what was once a trade union has slowly transformed itself into an undemocratic, bureaucratic monster.

joe_mamba 2mo ago

Only in some bubbles. But most normies I know are massive EU fanboys and showing them the malicious things the EU is doing, they just shrug at best, or call you a Putin supporter at worst. They'll only realize this when the jackboot is on their neck. But probably not even then because in some EU countries government obedience is like a religion.

NikolaNovak 2mo ago
What is "normies" in this context? I'm neurodivergent, and on various nerdom bell curve tails, including know more than averga bear about technology societal implications and misuses, but I still wouldn't use that term; here in particular, it seems a strong pejorative for anybody who disagrees with your world view :-/
- joe_mamba 2mo ago
  >What is "normies" in this context? normie = normal "average" people; People who aren't terminally online and up to date on tech and politics drama. Exactly the ones oblivious to negative things the EU is doing in the background, because stuff like Eurovision or the World Cup takes up more of their attentions span than complex tech or politics. >here in particular, it seems a strong pejorative Only because that's how you choose to see it. > for anybody who disagrees with your world view So having a world view where government surveillance state should NOT be OK makes me the bad guy?
gorgoiler 2mo ago
I recommend my own personal democracy metric: your level of democracy is proportional to how easily you can shout “moron!” at your representative and have them hear you. Do you know who they are, can you find them at a public meeting, and will they be able to hear you? For the EU, all three combine to give a pretty low score. As we’re seeing in the UK right now, if you stump up £500 and find ten people to counter-sign your candidacy, you can even run against your MP as a novelty candidate. If you choose your novelty name right you also get to stand next to them at the alphabetically-ordered result announcement. Compare with comatose Kentucky senators on their deathbed or EU commissioners based in a country with French train signs. Neither are insurmountable obstacles to democracy — hold up a sign? Google Translate? — but, by my metric, they are lesser options to something more local and accountable. I’m sure, back in the day, rural folk took umbrage at having to ride their donkey to the local town just to be able to throw cowpats at their despised burghers. We of course can do it on TikTok nowadays but nothing beats yelling in person.
- realityking 2mo ago
  EU commissioners are similar to minsters/secretaries in national governments. My chance of getting within earshot of German federal minister are only slightly better than those of an EU minister - especially those that are not also members of parliament. But if I’m unhappy with EU policies I can talk to a member of the EU parliament (and yes I know two of the members from my city) or I can talk to a member of the Bundestag since national governments have a large role in the EU. In the end, my voice is tiny. Which is expected, after all I’m just one of over 450 million people living here.
- selfmodruntime 2mo ago
  I would wager a good amount of money that below 1%, maybe even lower, could name the 5 most basic EU institutions and how they intertwine.
selfmodruntime 2mo ago
That is because they are so far removed from the actual proceedings and processes of the EU.

Flere-Imsaho 2mo ago

Here in the UK, a large proportion of the population still think the EU is a good idea... Despite all the evidence proving otherwise.

Lio 2mo ago
I know I do. I think the main purpose of the EU is to prevent wars between European states by providing a forum for compromise and cooperation. I’d say it’s succeeded in that nicely since its founding. Not one war between member states despite ongoing disputes. Seems like a very good idea. I hate this law though, it’s undemocratic.
- rayiner 2mo ago
  Okay, but couldn’t a more transparent and accountable structure have accomplished the same result? Why do you need a system with seven different bodies, more than one of which can make what’s effectively laws? For example, why have an elected parliament that can’t even originate law, but an unelected commission that can make regulations that are effectively laws?
  - NikolaNovak 2mo ago
    That's implementation details though; one can absolutely think that "EU is a good idea" and "specific EU systems need improving" simultaneously, without contradiction. It's like thinking "I like Canada and am a proud Canadian, though I think there's still a lot of inequality and many policies can be improved upon and we can certainly be more efficient".
    - rayiner 2mo ago
      I understand, but my question is directed to the second point. Even assuming people like the EU in principle, it's constitutional structure seems bizarre and in need of major reform, at least from my American viewpoint. But there doesn't seem to be any movement to "mend it, don't end it." Do most EU supporters also think the constitutional structure of the EU is fine as-is?

Mountain_Skies 2mo ago

A surprisingly large amount of people are quite alright with that as long as they perceive that those undemocratic processes are producing the end results they desire. It's not unique to the EU, though they do play this game very well, or even to this time period. Once the powers have been granted, the public has only limited ability to revoke the power, with many of them easily swayed that it's good for this power to exist by having a red meat issue thrown to them to chew on as a distraction.

gwerbin 2mo ago
The USA is a nice demonstration of how far it can go if you can manufacture enough "red meat issues" and keep going for decades.

gorwell 2mo ago

Reddit still thinks the EU represents democracy.

guelo 2mo ago
Reddit is one of the few remaining platforms where reach is determined democratically. You demean that populous by calling it the singular "reddit", as if it's a single hive mind. But you'll probably get your way, I imagine the billionaire censorship campaign will come for it too eventually. Then you'll only ever get to hear thoughts you agree with, glorious day ey?
- canadiantim 2mo ago
  Reddit is the most censored platform out there… posts and users that are not aligned with subreddit mods get banned or deleted prolifically. Subreddits that do not align similarly soon find themselves banned
  - HNisCIS 2mo ago
    Idk if many people remember how Reddit was when it started, its whole draw was that it was a bunch of relatively intelligent/friendly western internet people who liked to kinda role play as a hive mind. I wouldn't call it the most censored platform, but it still has vestiges of its old self, particularly with respect to philosophy and politics.
  - intended 2mo ago
    Subreddits get banned for egregious shit. Reddit stays on the side of letting subs up, rather than banning. Reddit has made it harder for mods to find out which subs you are active in, so that you can’t be banned for activity in subs that are in cold wars with each other.
    - selfmodruntime 2mo ago
      Nonsurprisingly, their leniency exists in a cycle that depends on who's in power in the US government.

onetimeusename 2mo ago

It wasn't really a trade union. It's purpose was to stop the re-emergence of something like the Nazis and to prevent wars. I don't think it's instincts were ever really democratic.