7 ms·

Who is "they"? What is their motive for wanting to "force people out of cars"?

slopinthebag 2mo ago
The “green movement” and “the environment” but mostly a desire for control. Why should people be able to own private property like cars, we should all be using government owned means of transportation in our new socialist utopia.
- wizzwizz4 2mo ago
  Who desires the control? Can you name a member of this nebulous conspiracy? Nobody I've spoken to about this topic has been able to.
  - slopinthebag 2mo ago
    I don’t need to know the names of the various lawmakers, lawyers, and politicians to know that they exist and to see the effects of their work. You’re being willfully blind here.
    - ryandrake 2mo ago
      "Trust me bro, I can't point to them but they exist" is also all the evidence we have of Aliens, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
      - slopinthebag 2mo ago
        Why don’t you just google ecosocialism? Read the wiki entry? Is that too difficult? Here: Elmar Altvater Ian Angus Rudolph Bahro Adam Bandt Hugo Blanco Murray Bookchin Jabari Brisport Walt Brown Paul Burkett Max Chandler-Mather Barry Commoner Jeremy Corbyn Pat Devine Jutta Ditfurth Sabrina Fernandes John Bellamy Foster Alberto Garzón André Gorz Ramachandra Guha Donna Haraway Howie Hawkins Jason Hickel Joan Herrera i Torres Naomi Klein Mark Carney Joel Kovel Dimitri Lascaris Enrique Leff Michael Löwy Caroline Lucas Andreas Malm David McReynolds Jean-Luc Mélenchon Steven Guilbeault Chico Mendes Luka Mesec George Monbiot William Morris Abdullah Öcalan James O'Connor David Orton Simon Pirani Zack Polanski Lee Rhiannon Raül Romeva Manuel Sacristán Ariel Salleh Joan Saura Pernille Skipper Jill Stein Chlöe Swarbrick Alan Thornett Peter Tatchell Alex Tyrrell Derek Wall Raymond Williams Gerrard Winstanley Avi Lewis
        ryandrake 2mo ago
        Maybe 6 of those people hold any kind of actual government position. The rest are either not in politics, former, retired from government, or dead. So ~six people control automobile regulation worldwide and are forcing people out of cars.... Right?
        slopinthebag 2mo ago
        You do understand that's an incomplete list of prominent eco-socialists, not literally every single believer right?
        wizzwizz4 2mo ago
        Then why didn't you provide a list of the ones who are doing "their work"? Given how many people talk about this, supposedly with hard evidence (that's never, ultimately, presented), someone must have compiled such a list, tied the individuals to the policies they've effected, mapped out their influence, the coalitions and deals… and if you believe this for good reason, then you must have had access to this proof. On the other hand, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism#Critique_of_actually_existing_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism#Critique_of_actu... says: > Kovel believes that the forms of 'actually existing socialism' consisted of "public ownership of the means of production", rather than meeting "the true definition" of socialism as "a free association of producers", with the Party-State bureaucracy acting as the "alienating substitute 'public'".[130] and in general, I cannot find any examples of eco-socialists making the claims, or holding the beliefs, you're attributing to them. Eco-socialists are not, near as I can tell, a fan of the state, nor "government ownership".
        slopinthebag 2mo ago
        Ah yes, we can’t criticize government initiatives and policy unless we have fully mapped out the exact people responsible for every line of law, including a detailed history of all their political views, and probably what they had for breakfast.
  - StanislavPetrov 2mo ago
    >Who desires the control? Can you name a member of this nebulous conspiracy? Every level of government, the World Economic Forum and every other organization that seeks to mandate digital currencies, mandate digital IDs, impose "chat control" and eliminate all privacy. You have to have your head buried deep, deep in the sand to think this is some sort of conspiracy. It is all happening right out in the open.
    - stackghost 2mo ago
      >[seeking to] mandate digital currencies, mandate digital IDs, impose "chat control" and eliminate all privacy. None of this has anything to do with a purported green movement that seeks to end private ownership of cars. Modern cars are easy to track, for starters.
      - StanislavPetrov 2mo ago
        >None of this has anything to do with a purported green movement that seeks to end private ownership of cars. Modern cars allow autonomy of movement, even if you are tracked (except of course those with the mandatory kill switches which our benevolent overlords have also ordered be installed).
        wizzwizz4 2mo ago
        So do bicycles. And bicycles don't require special fuel.
    - wizzwizz4 2mo ago
      Nobody I've spoken to who's name-dropped the World Economic Form in this context knows what the WEF is. (To be fair, neither did I, to begin with – but I wasn't making claims about it.)
      - StanislavPetrov 2mo ago
        Well I'm glad to be the first. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the WEF, which is an annual meeting of heads of state, titans of industry and other various unsavory billionaires and people with far too much power. Going back decades, a lot of the most odious totalitarian policies are hatched and disseminated there. This isn't some sort of conspiracy, most of it happens right out in the open. There are a wide variety of hour(s) long videos from these conferences about various policies they are pushing, and have pushed, going back years, as well as numerous documents laying out their plans. https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_A_Blueprint_for_Digital_Identity.pdf https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_A_Blueprint_for_Digital_Id... https://intelligence.weforum.org/topics/a1G0X000005JJGcUAO https://intelligence.weforum.org/topics/a1G0X000005JJGcUAO https://www.weforum.org/communities/digital-currency-governance-consortium/ https://www.weforum.org/communities/digital-currency-governa...
- stackghost 2mo ago
  >Why should people be able to own private property like cars, we should all be using government owned means of transportation in our new socialist utopia. Given that electric vehicles including cars, busses and trains all exist, can you explain what relationship exists between the notion of private property ownership (notably cars) and "the green movement"? It is not clear to me why a global environmentalist cabal would seek to end private ownership of electric cars, which have more or less the same drawbacks as electric busses or trains. Furthermore: As far as I can tell, the following groups are both wealthy and powerful, and have a financial interest in opposing the end of fossil fuels and/or the end of private property: - big oil - coal - auto manufacturers - major banks (because they finance loans, including auto loans) - the governments of oil-rich nations like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Venezuela, Canada (Alberta, mostly), Russia, Iran, etc. Can you also explain where the "green movement" is getting its funding and lobbying to not only resist but (according to you) completely overcome the influence of the above groups?
  - slopinthebag 2mo ago
    Because the green movement is largely made up of socialists. As such, the Venn diagram of the desired end result for socialists and the green movement is nearly a perfect circle. You will find very few right-leaning or libertarian greens. Almost all of them also believe in Marxism or some derivative of it, or at least some form of left-leaning technocracy. Hopefully you don’t need me to explain the relationship between Marxism and private property. And don’t assume I’m right-leaning per-say, I’m probably socially more left than you are, it’s just that I believe in the sanctimony of the individual (which is where my socially left leaning views stem from). I’m not even necessarily opposed to socialism in theory, just in practice. To answer your second question, I don’t think it’s accurate to assume auto manufacturers have a financial interest in opposing the end of fossil fuels.
    - stackghost 2mo ago
      >Because the green movement is largely made up of socialists Okay, and where are they getting their political clout and funding? I believe in following the money. Where does the money come from? >I don’t think it’s accurate to assume auto manufacturers have a financial interest in opposing the end of fossil fuels. Auto manufacturers certainly have a financial interest in private automobile ownership, don't you think?
- GuinansEyebrows 2mo ago
  "the environment" wants to "force people out of cars"? are you hearing yourself?
  - slopinthebag 2mo ago
    No, you’re not hearing me. The given reason for people wanting to force people out of cars is the environment, it’s not literally the environment wanting to force people out of cars (nonsense statement) and for a lot of people, that given reason isn’t even the real reason.

The “green movement” and “the environment” but mostly a desire for control. Why should people be able to own private property like cars, we should all be using government owned means of transportation in our new socialist utopia.

wizzwizz4 2mo ago
Who desires the control? Can you name a member of this nebulous conspiracy? Nobody I've spoken to about this topic has been able to.
- slopinthebag 2mo ago
  I don’t need to know the names of the various lawmakers, lawyers, and politicians to know that they exist and to see the effects of their work. You’re being willfully blind here.
  - ryandrake 2mo ago
    "Trust me bro, I can't point to them but they exist" is also all the evidence we have of Aliens, Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
    - slopinthebag 2mo ago
      Why don’t you just google ecosocialism? Read the wiki entry? Is that too difficult? Here: Elmar Altvater Ian Angus Rudolph Bahro Adam Bandt Hugo Blanco Murray Bookchin Jabari Brisport Walt Brown Paul Burkett Max Chandler-Mather Barry Commoner Jeremy Corbyn Pat Devine Jutta Ditfurth Sabrina Fernandes John Bellamy Foster Alberto Garzón André Gorz Ramachandra Guha Donna Haraway Howie Hawkins Jason Hickel Joan Herrera i Torres Naomi Klein Mark Carney Joel Kovel Dimitri Lascaris Enrique Leff Michael Löwy Caroline Lucas Andreas Malm David McReynolds Jean-Luc Mélenchon Steven Guilbeault Chico Mendes Luka Mesec George Monbiot William Morris Abdullah Öcalan James O'Connor David Orton Simon Pirani Zack Polanski Lee Rhiannon Raül Romeva Manuel Sacristán Ariel Salleh Joan Saura Pernille Skipper Jill Stein Chlöe Swarbrick Alan Thornett Peter Tatchell Alex Tyrrell Derek Wall Raymond Williams Gerrard Winstanley Avi Lewis
      - ryandrake 2mo ago
        Maybe 6 of those people hold any kind of actual government position. The rest are either not in politics, former, retired from government, or dead. So ~six people control automobile regulation worldwide and are forcing people out of cars.... Right?
        slopinthebag 2mo ago
        You do understand that's an incomplete list of prominent eco-socialists, not literally every single believer right?
        wizzwizz4 2mo ago
        Then why didn't you provide a list of the ones who are doing "their work"? Given how many people talk about this, supposedly with hard evidence (that's never, ultimately, presented), someone must have compiled such a list, tied the individuals to the policies they've effected, mapped out their influence, the coalitions and deals… and if you believe this for good reason, then you must have had access to this proof. On the other hand, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism#Critique_of_actually_existing_socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism#Critique_of_actu... says: > Kovel believes that the forms of 'actually existing socialism' consisted of "public ownership of the means of production", rather than meeting "the true definition" of socialism as "a free association of producers", with the Party-State bureaucracy acting as the "alienating substitute 'public'".[130] and in general, I cannot find any examples of eco-socialists making the claims, or holding the beliefs, you're attributing to them. Eco-socialists are not, near as I can tell, a fan of the state, nor "government ownership".
        slopinthebag 2mo ago
        Ah yes, we can’t criticize government initiatives and policy unless we have fully mapped out the exact people responsible for every line of law, including a detailed history of all their political views, and probably what they had for breakfast.
- StanislavPetrov 2mo ago
  >Who desires the control? Can you name a member of this nebulous conspiracy? Every level of government, the World Economic Forum and every other organization that seeks to mandate digital currencies, mandate digital IDs, impose "chat control" and eliminate all privacy. You have to have your head buried deep, deep in the sand to think this is some sort of conspiracy. It is all happening right out in the open.
  - stackghost 2mo ago
    >[seeking to] mandate digital currencies, mandate digital IDs, impose "chat control" and eliminate all privacy. None of this has anything to do with a purported green movement that seeks to end private ownership of cars. Modern cars are easy to track, for starters.
    - StanislavPetrov 2mo ago
      >None of this has anything to do with a purported green movement that seeks to end private ownership of cars. Modern cars allow autonomy of movement, even if you are tracked (except of course those with the mandatory kill switches which our benevolent overlords have also ordered be installed).
      - wizzwizz4 2mo ago
        So do bicycles. And bicycles don't require special fuel.
  - wizzwizz4 2mo ago
    Nobody I've spoken to who's name-dropped the World Economic Form in this context knows what the WEF is. (To be fair, neither did I, to begin with – but I wasn't making claims about it.)
    - StanislavPetrov 2mo ago
      Well I'm glad to be the first. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the WEF, which is an annual meeting of heads of state, titans of industry and other various unsavory billionaires and people with far too much power. Going back decades, a lot of the most odious totalitarian policies are hatched and disseminated there. This isn't some sort of conspiracy, most of it happens right out in the open. There are a wide variety of hour(s) long videos from these conferences about various policies they are pushing, and have pushed, going back years, as well as numerous documents laying out their plans. https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_A_Blueprint_for_Digital_Identity.pdf https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_A_Blueprint_for_Digital_Id... https://intelligence.weforum.org/topics/a1G0X000005JJGcUAO https://intelligence.weforum.org/topics/a1G0X000005JJGcUAO https://www.weforum.org/communities/digital-currency-governance-consortium/ https://www.weforum.org/communities/digital-currency-governa...
stackghost 2mo ago
>Why should people be able to own private property like cars, we should all be using government owned means of transportation in our new socialist utopia. Given that electric vehicles including cars, busses and trains all exist, can you explain what relationship exists between the notion of private property ownership (notably cars) and "the green movement"? It is not clear to me why a global environmentalist cabal would seek to end private ownership of electric cars, which have more or less the same drawbacks as electric busses or trains. Furthermore: As far as I can tell, the following groups are both wealthy and powerful, and have a financial interest in opposing the end of fossil fuels and/or the end of private property: - big oil - coal - auto manufacturers - major banks (because they finance loans, including auto loans) - the governments of oil-rich nations like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Venezuela, Canada (Alberta, mostly), Russia, Iran, etc. Can you also explain where the "green movement" is getting its funding and lobbying to not only resist but (according to you) completely overcome the influence of the above groups?
- slopinthebag 2mo ago
  Because the green movement is largely made up of socialists. As such, the Venn diagram of the desired end result for socialists and the green movement is nearly a perfect circle. You will find very few right-leaning or libertarian greens. Almost all of them also believe in Marxism or some derivative of it, or at least some form of left-leaning technocracy. Hopefully you don’t need me to explain the relationship between Marxism and private property. And don’t assume I’m right-leaning per-say, I’m probably socially more left than you are, it’s just that I believe in the sanctimony of the individual (which is where my socially left leaning views stem from). I’m not even necessarily opposed to socialism in theory, just in practice. To answer your second question, I don’t think it’s accurate to assume auto manufacturers have a financial interest in opposing the end of fossil fuels.
  - stackghost 2mo ago
    >Because the green movement is largely made up of socialists Okay, and where are they getting their political clout and funding? I believe in following the money. Where does the money come from? >I don’t think it’s accurate to assume auto manufacturers have a financial interest in opposing the end of fossil fuels. Auto manufacturers certainly have a financial interest in private automobile ownership, don't you think?
GuinansEyebrows 2mo ago
"the environment" wants to "force people out of cars"? are you hearing yourself?
- slopinthebag 2mo ago
  No, you’re not hearing me. The given reason for people wanting to force people out of cars is the environment, it’s not literally the environment wanting to force people out of cars (nonsense statement) and for a lot of people, that given reason isn’t even the real reason.