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I think that everybody who supports the use of nuclear weapons should look at these pictures and listen to the experiences by the survivors of the blast about w

I think that everybody who supports the use of nuclear weapons should look at these pictures and listen to the experiences by the survivors of the blast about what it was actually like just afterwards and think critically about if any creature deserves to be subjected to that

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nelox 2mo ago
Horrific, yes. However, estimates for the total number of people killed by Imperial Japan during World War II (primarily 1937–1945) range from roughly 20 to 30 million or higher across the Asia-Pacific theater, and they refused unconditional surrender until 2 atomic bombs stopped them killing who knows how many more.
- wat10000 2mo ago
  And most importantly, they still controlled vast swathes of territory and thousands were dying every day under the brutal occupation. Bringing that to an end quickly was very important.
- TacticalCoder 2mo ago
  It also prevented Russia, after having annihilated the nazis (from the east), from spanking Japan's ass and conquering Japan. The US killed two birds with two nukes: they prevented Japan from continuing their rampage and they prevented Russia from taking Japan.
  - gonzalohm 2mo ago
    Do you really think any European country was in shape to face Japan? Russia experienced a famine right after Germany capitulated, they almost lost Moscow, they received billions of dollars from the US to be able to finish the war. I think just trying to mobilize their troops to the east would have been unimaginable
    - chasil 2mo ago
      Russia invaded and occupied the Sakhalin islands near the end of World War II. Native Japanese were allowed to leave, as I understand it. "Japan invaded the northern parts of Sakhalin, and ruled the entire island from 1918 to 1925. Russia has held all of the island since seizing the Japanese portion in the final days of World War II in 1945, as well as all of the Kurils." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin
      - gonzalohm 2mo ago
        That was literally in August 1945. Basically using the confusion after the bombs were dropped to gain territory
        chasil 2mo ago
        Interesting, I did not know that the Soviets declared war against Japan between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki detonations.
  - throw0101a 2mo ago
    > The US killed two birds with two nukes: they prevented Japan from continuing their rampage and they prevented Russia from taking Japan. While this is coïncidentally true, and a benefit given the later situation with the Cold War, it should be noted that there is no documentation from that time period where the 'Russian threat' was taken into account when the decision to drop the bomb has made. There was, in later years, speculation that this was one of the reasons, but there's no memos, telegraphs, or other documents to show it was the case.
TacticalCoder 2mo ago
I don't support the use of nuclear weapons (and I'm 100% sure that should Iran get it, they'd wipe Israel off the map) but I honestly think Japan got a better "deal" than eastern Europe by getting two nukes, surrendering, and not being conquered by Russia and becoming a satellite of the USSR. They haven't suffered decades of communism and have seen an extremely successful recovery from WWII in a short amount of time. The reason they sided with the nazis --and two nukes were a harsh price to pay for having picked the wrong side-- is because they knew Russia would come after Japan. The two nukes stopped Russia's thirst for Japan on the spot. We'd be living in a very different world if the two nukes didn't happen and it's not clear at all Japan would still be japanese. P.S: I've got family in Japan and I've been many times and I'll probably be going on vacation there next summer. I love Japan.
gedy 2mo ago
People who say this gloss over the horrific fire bombing of Tokyo, etc (so bad B-29 crews could smell the bodies burning from thousands of feet above...). Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no worse than that.
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tekla 2mo ago
I always wonder if people who make this argument would be against nuking Berlin or other major German cities if it would have stopped the European war much earlier.
bmink 2mo ago
Not to mention that the bombs dropped on Japan were primitive and small fission bombs and pale in comparison to today's thermonuclear warheads.
throw0101a 2mo ago
> I think that everybody who supports the use of nuclear weapons should […] I think that everybody—pro and con—should read 140 Days to Hiroshima: The Story of Japan's Last Chance to Avert Armageddon by David Dean Barrett who uses Japanese sources (including Cabinet minutes) to look at Japan's decision making process before, during, and after the bombs were dropped. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51089656-140-days-to-hiroshima https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51089656-140-days-to-hir... * https://www.nationalww2museum.org/about-us/notes-museum/140-days-hiroshima-story-japans-last-chance-avert-armageddon https://www.nationalww2museum.org/about-us/notes-museum/140-... The first bomb was dropped on August 6. On August 9 the Japanese War Cabinet met in the morning and got confirmation that it was a new type of weapon—and decided to not surrender. They then got news around 13:00 that in the morning a second, similar bomb was dropped, and they—could not decide to surrender or not. The War Cabinet was dead-locked 3–3, so they called in the full Cabinet and it was also dead-locked, and so they called in the Emperor, who broke the dead-lock and decided to 'stop the war'.† And even after the Emperor himself made the call, there were still elements of the Japanese military that wanted to keep fighting and attempted a coup: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident So if it took two bombings (and the Emperor's personal involvement) I'm not sure how people can think zero bombings would have allowed the war to end. (The Japanese had already known for a year before the bombings that they could not win militarily). The other two options were blockading Japan, causing mass starvation, or an invasion: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall > […] and think critically about if any creature deserves to be subjected to that I would think critically about if any creature deserves to be subjected to the being ruled by Imperial Japan given the Rape of Nanking and other things: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 † The Japanese do not use the word "surrender" in their announcement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast
defrost 2mo ago
Is it actually the case that deaths and injuries in H & N are distinctly worse than the deaths and injuries in the other 72 cities levelled by bombing in the few months prior to the H & N bombings? Before the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was the burning of Tokyo. Operation Meetinghouse, the early March 1945 raid on Tokyo that involved over 330 B-29s dropping incendiary bombs from low-altitude at night, killed roughly 100,000 people, and may have injured and made homeless an order of magnitude more. As with all statistics on the damage caused by strategic bombing during World War II, there are debatable points and methodologies, but most people accept that the bombing of Tokyo probably had at least as many deaths as the Hiroshima bombing raid, and probably more. It is sometimes listed as the most single deadly air raid of all time as a consequence. ~ https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/09/22/tokyo-hiroshima/ https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/09/22/tokyo-hiroshima/
- brudgers 2mo ago
  The fire bombing of civilians was wrong too.
- m-i-l 2mo ago
  > "Is it actually the case that deaths and injuries in H & N are distinctly worse" Hiroshima and Nagasaki had radiation - many died in the following months from the "atomic bomb disease", now known to be acute radiation sickness, and many died in the following years from cancer, for example. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions_on_human_health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions_... for details of all the different ways a nuclear explosion can cause death or injury in the initial stage (1-9 weeks), intermediate stage (10-12 weeks), late period (13-20 weeks), and delayed period (20+ weeks). Bear in mind that the effects of radiation weren't well understood at the time. Furthermore, all the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and their children "were (and still are) victims of severe discrimination when it comes to prospects of marriage or work due to public ignorance about the consequences of radiation sickness, with much of the public believing it to be hereditary or even contagious"[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha
- dylan604 2mo ago
fragmede 2mo ago
I think no creature should be subjected to such pain, but wishing doesn't change the reality that Putin invaded Ukraine, so devices exist to cause such horrible destruction. The remaining question is, who's holding the trigger?
- voidUpdate 2mo ago
  Nuclear devices existed way before Putin. Currently, many countries hold the trigger. I appreciate that my wishing doesn't change anything, but I can't exactly do much about it concretely

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nelox 2mo ago

Horrific, yes. However, estimates for the total number of people killed by Imperial Japan during World War II (primarily 1937–1945) range from roughly 20 to 30 million or higher across the Asia-Pacific theater, and they refused unconditional surrender until 2 atomic bombs stopped them killing who knows how many more.

wat10000 2mo ago
And most importantly, they still controlled vast swathes of territory and thousands were dying every day under the brutal occupation. Bringing that to an end quickly was very important.
TacticalCoder 2mo ago
It also prevented Russia, after having annihilated the nazis (from the east), from spanking Japan's ass and conquering Japan. The US killed two birds with two nukes: they prevented Japan from continuing their rampage and they prevented Russia from taking Japan.
- gonzalohm 2mo ago
  Do you really think any European country was in shape to face Japan? Russia experienced a famine right after Germany capitulated, they almost lost Moscow, they received billions of dollars from the US to be able to finish the war. I think just trying to mobilize their troops to the east would have been unimaginable
  - chasil 2mo ago
    Russia invaded and occupied the Sakhalin islands near the end of World War II. Native Japanese were allowed to leave, as I understand it. "Japan invaded the northern parts of Sakhalin, and ruled the entire island from 1918 to 1925. Russia has held all of the island since seizing the Japanese portion in the final days of World War II in 1945, as well as all of the Kurils." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakhalin
    - gonzalohm 2mo ago
      That was literally in August 1945. Basically using the confusion after the bombs were dropped to gain territory
      - chasil 2mo ago
        Interesting, I did not know that the Soviets declared war against Japan between the Hiroshima and Nagasaki detonations.
- throw0101a 2mo ago
  > The US killed two birds with two nukes: they prevented Japan from continuing their rampage and they prevented Russia from taking Japan. While this is coïncidentally true, and a benefit given the later situation with the Cold War, it should be noted that there is no documentation from that time period where the 'Russian threat' was taken into account when the decision to drop the bomb has made. There was, in later years, speculation that this was one of the reasons, but there's no memos, telegraphs, or other documents to show it was the case.

TacticalCoder 2mo ago

I don't support the use of nuclear weapons (and I'm 100% sure that should Iran get it, they'd wipe Israel off the map) but I honestly think Japan got a better "deal" than eastern Europe by getting two nukes, surrendering, and not being conquered by Russia and becoming a satellite of the USSR. They haven't suffered decades of communism and have seen an extremely successful recovery from WWII in a short amount of time. The reason they sided with the nazis --and two nukes were a harsh price to pay for having picked the wrong side-- is because they knew Russia would come after Japan. The two nukes stopped Russia's thirst for Japan on the spot. We'd be living in a very different world if the two nukes didn't happen and it's not clear at all Japan would still be japanese. P.S: I've got family in Japan and I've been many times and I'll probably be going on vacation there next summer. I love Japan.

gedy 2mo ago

People who say this gloss over the horrific fire bombing of Tokyo, etc (so bad B-29 crews could smell the bodies burning from thousands of feet above...). Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no worse than that.

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tekla 2mo ago

I always wonder if people who make this argument would be against nuking Berlin or other major German cities if it would have stopped the European war much earlier.

bmink 2mo ago

Not to mention that the bombs dropped on Japan were primitive and small fission bombs and pale in comparison to today's thermonuclear warheads.

throw0101a 2mo ago

> I think that everybody who supports the use of nuclear weapons should […] I think that everybody—pro and con—should read 140 Days to Hiroshima: The Story of Japan's Last Chance to Avert Armageddon by David Dean Barrett who uses Japanese sources (including Cabinet minutes) to look at Japan's decision making process before, during, and after the bombs were dropped. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51089656-140-days-to-hiroshima https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51089656-140-days-to-hir... * https://www.nationalww2museum.org/about-us/notes-museum/140-days-hiroshima-story-japans-last-chance-avert-armageddon https://www.nationalww2museum.org/about-us/notes-museum/140-... The first bomb was dropped on August 6. On August 9 the Japanese War Cabinet met in the morning and got confirmation that it was a new type of weapon—and decided to not surrender. They then got news around 13:00 that in the morning a second, similar bomb was dropped, and they—could not decide to surrender or not. The War Cabinet was dead-locked 3–3, so they called in the full Cabinet and it was also dead-locked, and so they called in the Emperor, who broke the dead-lock and decided to 'stop the war'.† And even after the Emperor himself made the call, there were still elements of the Japanese military that wanted to keep fighting and attempted a coup: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyūjō_incident So if it took two bombings (and the Emperor's personal involvement) I'm not sure how people can think zero bombings would have allowed the war to end. (The Japanese had already known for a year before the bombings that they could not win militarily). The other two options were blockading Japan, causing mass starvation, or an invasion: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Downfall > […] and think critically about if any creature deserves to be subjected to that I would think critically about if any creature deserves to be subjected to the being ruled by Imperial Japan given the Rape of Nanking and other things: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bataan_Death_March * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 † The Japanese do not use the word "surrender" in their announcement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirohito_surrender_broadcast

defrost 2mo ago

Is it actually the case that deaths and injuries in H & N are distinctly worse than the deaths and injuries in the other 72 cities levelled by bombing in the few months prior to the H & N bombings? Before the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there was the burning of Tokyo. Operation Meetinghouse, the early March 1945 raid on Tokyo that involved over 330 B-29s dropping incendiary bombs from low-altitude at night, killed roughly 100,000 people, and may have injured and made homeless an order of magnitude more. As with all statistics on the damage caused by strategic bombing during World War II, there are debatable points and methodologies, but most people accept that the bombing of Tokyo probably had at least as many deaths as the Hiroshima bombing raid, and probably more. It is sometimes listed as the most single deadly air raid of all time as a consequence. ~ https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/09/22/tokyo-hiroshima/ https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2014/09/22/tokyo-hiroshima/

brudgers 2mo ago
The fire bombing of civilians was wrong too.
m-i-l 2mo ago
> "Is it actually the case that deaths and injuries in H & N are distinctly worse" Hiroshima and Nagasaki had radiation - many died in the following months from the "atomic bomb disease", now known to be acute radiation sickness, and many died in the following years from cancer, for example. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions_on_human_health https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions_... for details of all the different ways a nuclear explosion can cause death or injury in the initial stage (1-9 weeks), intermediate stage (10-12 weeks), late period (13-20 weeks), and delayed period (20+ weeks). Bear in mind that the effects of radiation weren't well understood at the time. Furthermore, all the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and their children "were (and still are) victims of severe discrimination when it comes to prospects of marriage or work due to public ignorance about the consequences of radiation sickness, with much of the public believing it to be hereditary or even contagious"[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha
dylan604 2mo ago

fragmede 2mo ago

I think no creature should be subjected to such pain, but wishing doesn't change the reality that Putin invaded Ukraine, so devices exist to cause such horrible destruction. The remaining question is, who's holding the trigger?

voidUpdate 2mo ago
Nuclear devices existed way before Putin. Currently, many countries hold the trigger. I appreciate that my wishing doesn't change anything, but I can't exactly do much about it concretely