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But does Apple really care about web developers? How do you test on Safari if you don’t have Apple devices? How difficult can it be for Apple to make barebone

But does Apple really care about web developers? How do you test on Safari if you don’t have Apple devices? How difficult can it be for Apple to make barebones virtual machines with just Safaris?

Terretta 3mo ago
Even in the Chrome hegemony you don't want to be missing Edge and many others, so you test chromium. Similarly, while not perfect you can test WebKit, and if you like, on Linux or Windows, for example: https://orionbrowser.com/platforms/linux https://orionbrowser.com/platforms/linux Apple wouldn't be in the business of VMs with Safari, but if you're looking for MacOS VMs, turn to a CSP: https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/ https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/ Many have software testing orchestration pre-wired.
- demetris 3mo ago
  I know of the solutions. I use a few of them. I have multiple Playwright webkits on both Windows and Linux. I have Epiphany on Linux (not 100% same webkit). I have subscriptions for testing on real hardware. This is why it seems to me that Apple does not really care about web developers.
- Alifatisk 3mo ago
  No way, is Orion Browser available on other platforms as well now? Does it mean I can finally do tests for Safari (webkit) without owning an Apple product or paying for a vm? Incredible.
pjmlp 3mo ago
Just like you would test IE on Linux or OS X.
- demetris 3mo ago
  ### THIS FILE IS AUTOMATICALLY CONFIGURED ### # Changes to this file will not be preserved. # This file will not be recreated if removed. X-Repolib-Name: Microsoft Edge Types: deb URIs: https://packages.microsoft.com/repos/edge-stable Suites: stable Components: main Architectures: amd64 Architectures: amd64 Signed-By: /usr/share/keyrings/microsoft-edge.gpg Come on! The year is not 2001.
  - pjmlp 3mo ago
    I said IE, not Edge.
    - frb 3mo ago
      But why would you still test for IE in 2026? Honest question. I’s < .5% market share and retired since 2023.
      - demetris 3mo ago
        I think pjmlp is just being contrarian. First, the Microsoft browser these days is Edge, not IE. IE is dead. Second, if you want, or wanted in the past, to test on Internet Explorer without a Windows computer, you could just virtualize Windows. Windows can be legally virtualized on any hardware and on any host operating system. Starting from 2013, you didn’t even need to pay for a Windows license to do that: https://archive.org/details/modern.ie-vm https://archive.org/details/modern.ie-vm
        pjmlp 3mo ago
        Nope, making a point. You would still need a VM for that. Just like you can get a macOS VM, plenty of ways to get them.
        demetris 3mo ago
        What plenty of ways? How can I run a macOS virtual machine LEGALLY on my Linux or Windows machine?
        simondotau 3mo ago
        Are seriously asking with a straight face? Just do what a generation of people have done with Windows and run an unlicensed version of macOS. There's a whole generation of people who can recite Windows product keys off by heart. (FCKGW, anyone?) Entire empires of indie web development will have been done on improperly licensed versions of Windows. As for people working in a serious professional corporation that cannot condone casual piracy, buy a Mac mini and expense it, or get an account on MacStadium.
embedding-shape 3mo ago
> How do you test on Safari if you don’t have Apple devices? How do you test a Playstation game without a Playstation (dev kit)? How do you test some hardware firmware without having the hardware? How can you run a program without the hardware required to run the program, if no emulator/simulator is available? I'm almost lost at words how these are questions, unless they're theoretical and some diatribe comes afterwards that has the actual point trying to be made, but it never came. Yes, some things run only on specific hardware and without virtualization/emulation, you're not supposed to test those things outside of the hardware. Been a thing for decades, probably since the beginning of computing. > How difficult can it be for Apple to make barebones virtual machines with just Safaris? Almost nothing Apple does is seemingly decided by how difficult it is, for better or worse, but are strategic decisions. If you haven't caught up with that they're building a walled garden for themselves, I'm not sure what could convince that they are. I think this is extremely clear for most people. If you don't like it, don't play there, like the rest of us.
- shubb 3mo ago
  A lot of folks want to run tests off a GitHub action I.e. on a server somewhere. Ideally you want your test stack to fit in a docker image. So this does suck for developers in the respect and you could imagine apple releasing a special docker image that just ran safari if they wanted to really make it easy to develop for thier platform. However, I imagine someone will fill a server rack with cheap old macs and offer and safari mcp as a service…
  - embedding-shape 3mo ago
    > A lot of folks want to run tests off a GitHub action I.e. on a server somewhere. Understandable, but also if you're dealing with these sort of projects, you kind of have to setup that sort of automation yourself in an office/someone's house, unless you find some provider that already hosts that sort of thing, like the various Apple/vendor-specific services for that. It's also not a very new thing really, MacStadium for example been around since like 2010 sometime.
  - alphabettsy 3mo ago
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
andrethegiant 3mo ago
> But does Apple really care about web developers? They just released this new tool, so yes.

But does Apple really care about web developers? How do you test on Safari if you don’t have Apple devices? How difficult can it be for Apple to make barebones virtual machines with just Safaris?

Terretta 3mo ago

Even in the Chrome hegemony you don't want to be missing Edge and many others, so you test chromium. Similarly, while not perfect you can test WebKit, and if you like, on Linux or Windows, for example: https://orionbrowser.com/platforms/linux https://orionbrowser.com/platforms/linux Apple wouldn't be in the business of VMs with Safari, but if you're looking for MacOS VMs, turn to a CSP: https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/ https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/instance-types/mac/ Many have software testing orchestration pre-wired.

demetris 3mo ago
I know of the solutions. I use a few of them. I have multiple Playwright webkits on both Windows and Linux. I have Epiphany on Linux (not 100% same webkit). I have subscriptions for testing on real hardware. This is why it seems to me that Apple does not really care about web developers.
Alifatisk 3mo ago
No way, is Orion Browser available on other platforms as well now? Does it mean I can finally do tests for Safari (webkit) without owning an Apple product or paying for a vm? Incredible.

pjmlp 3mo ago

Just like you would test IE on Linux or OS X.

demetris 3mo ago
### THIS FILE IS AUTOMATICALLY CONFIGURED ### # Changes to this file will not be preserved. # This file will not be recreated if removed. X-Repolib-Name: Microsoft Edge Types: deb URIs: https://packages.microsoft.com/repos/edge-stable Suites: stable Components: main Architectures: amd64 Architectures: amd64 Signed-By: /usr/share/keyrings/microsoft-edge.gpg Come on! The year is not 2001.
- pjmlp 3mo ago
  I said IE, not Edge.
  - frb 3mo ago
    But why would you still test for IE in 2026? Honest question. I’s < .5% market share and retired since 2023.
    - demetris 3mo ago
      I think pjmlp is just being contrarian. First, the Microsoft browser these days is Edge, not IE. IE is dead. Second, if you want, or wanted in the past, to test on Internet Explorer without a Windows computer, you could just virtualize Windows. Windows can be legally virtualized on any hardware and on any host operating system. Starting from 2013, you didn’t even need to pay for a Windows license to do that: https://archive.org/details/modern.ie-vm https://archive.org/details/modern.ie-vm
      - pjmlp 3mo ago
        Nope, making a point. You would still need a VM for that. Just like you can get a macOS VM, plenty of ways to get them.
        demetris 3mo ago
        What plenty of ways? How can I run a macOS virtual machine LEGALLY on my Linux or Windows machine?
        simondotau 3mo ago
        Are seriously asking with a straight face? Just do what a generation of people have done with Windows and run an unlicensed version of macOS. There's a whole generation of people who can recite Windows product keys off by heart. (FCKGW, anyone?) Entire empires of indie web development will have been done on improperly licensed versions of Windows. As for people working in a serious professional corporation that cannot condone casual piracy, buy a Mac mini and expense it, or get an account on MacStadium.

embedding-shape 3mo ago

> How do you test on Safari if you don’t have Apple devices? How do you test a Playstation game without a Playstation (dev kit)? How do you test some hardware firmware without having the hardware? How can you run a program without the hardware required to run the program, if no emulator/simulator is available? I'm almost lost at words how these are questions, unless they're theoretical and some diatribe comes afterwards that has the actual point trying to be made, but it never came. Yes, some things run only on specific hardware and without virtualization/emulation, you're not supposed to test those things outside of the hardware. Been a thing for decades, probably since the beginning of computing. > How difficult can it be for Apple to make barebones virtual machines with just Safaris? Almost nothing Apple does is seemingly decided by how difficult it is, for better or worse, but are strategic decisions. If you haven't caught up with that they're building a walled garden for themselves, I'm not sure what could convince that they are. I think this is extremely clear for most people. If you don't like it, don't play there, like the rest of us.

shubb 3mo ago
A lot of folks want to run tests off a GitHub action I.e. on a server somewhere. Ideally you want your test stack to fit in a docker image. So this does suck for developers in the respect and you could imagine apple releasing a special docker image that just ran safari if they wanted to really make it easy to develop for thier platform. However, I imagine someone will fill a server rack with cheap old macs and offer and safari mcp as a service…
- embedding-shape 3mo ago
  > A lot of folks want to run tests off a GitHub action I.e. on a server somewhere. Understandable, but also if you're dealing with these sort of projects, you kind of have to setup that sort of automation yourself in an office/someone's house, unless you find some provider that already hosts that sort of thing, like the various Apple/vendor-specific services for that. It's also not a very new thing really, MacStadium for example been around since like 2010 sometime.
- alphabettsy 3mo ago

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

andrethegiant 3mo ago

> But does Apple really care about web developers? They just released this new tool, so yes.