7 ms·

Given the US is one of the most (the most?) successful countries in recent human history, shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the 95% be looking at

Given the US is one of the most (the most?) successful countries in recent human history, shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the 95% be looking at the US and seeing what to copy?

qalmakka 3mo ago
To be fair a lot of it had also to do with the sheer immense amount of vast, mostly unused ,fertile land available in north America. I sincerely doubt the American experiment would have worked this well if they had rowdy neighbours and infighting due to resource constraints. For almost 200 years the solution to most things in the USA was to get a chunk of either their people or immigrant to move to the neck of the woods to find fortune
- Windchaser 3mo ago
  Not getting wrecked in major land wars during the 1800s and 1900s also helped
  - matthewdgreen 3mo ago
    We got wrecked in a major land war in the 1800s, just to be pedantic.
- returningfory2 3mo ago
  But the success hasn't ended since the unused land became taken; in fact, the US became a superpower after the westward expansion era. My point is that looking at conditions today, the US still continues to succeed (by some definition of success) and other countries should try to emulate the aspects of the country that leads to that success. IMO one of the big factors is how well immigrants assimilate in the country, and birthright citizenship is a part of that. I do agree with you that US success in the 19th century was due to many factors that are not relevant today.
- insane_dreamer 3mo ago
  > sheer immense amount of vast, mostly unused ,fertile land available in north America it was not "available", it only became "available" after we killed off nearly all the inhabitants and stole their land
  - factcheckr 3mo ago
    This exaggerated lie always gets posted, but it's entirely inaccurate. The Indians were nomadic hunter-gatherers who were sparsely distributed around the US and moved seasonally. Diseases killed the majority. Inter-tribal warfare was the second leading cause of death (tribes that had been fighting for generations with rocks and sticks got access to horses, steel blades and guns and became much more lethal) and deaths attributable to European settlers were negligible compared to the first two causes.
    - insane_dreamer 3mo ago
      stop whitewashing it yes, diseases killed the majority, but the diseases didn't come out of nowhere, they came from the European occupiers. and inter-tribal warfare killed plenty. but we're talking about theft of "available" land: the Europeans took the land from the remaining inhabitants, killing those who resisted, and deceiving those who submitted through treaties which they repeatedly broke, leaving the natives, by design, with the worst, most infertile land in the country don't try to gloss it over and hand-wave it away -- yes, the natives were greatly diminished through the causes you mentioned, I never said the European occupiers killed them all, but it was genocide to finish them off and take all the land from anyone who resisted, effectively destroying their civilization and stop calling them "settlers", they did not "settle" the land, they took it by force and deception
greggoB 3mo ago
Define successful? (You'll probably want to avoid metrics like happiness indices and life expectancy though)
- AnimalMuppet 3mo ago
  At a minimum, it's been a place that people wanted to come to, more than they wanted to come to anywhere else in the world. That's successful as measured by people. (Or at least, people wanted to come until the last couple of years...)
  - pixel_popping 3mo ago
    I'm not sure it's true, that seems to be mostly for economic reasons (which might define success, arguably), but I bet a lot more people would dream about living let say in Thailand than in the US, they just can't because they don't have the means.
- returningfory2 3mo ago
  Fair point. Mainly I agree with the sibling comment: the revealed preference of many people around the world, including many people from the richest countries in Europe, is to move the United States and then settle permanently. I think that means a lot. Obviously you can also say that the US is geopolitically successful because of its global military and diplomatic dominance, but I account zero value to this.
- dmitrygr 3mo ago
  Nobel prizes? Manned moon landings? Reserve currencies? AC units per capita?
  - greggoB 3mo ago
    Are any of these stipulated as criteria anywhere? There's also proportion of adult in prisons, people who believe in angels, and the mass-shooting high score > AC units per capita This gave me a laugh

Given the US is one of the most (the most?) successful countries in recent human history, shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the 95% be looking at the US and seeing what to copy?

qalmakka 3mo ago

To be fair a lot of it had also to do with the sheer immense amount of vast, mostly unused ,fertile land available in north America. I sincerely doubt the American experiment would have worked this well if they had rowdy neighbours and infighting due to resource constraints. For almost 200 years the solution to most things in the USA was to get a chunk of either their people or immigrant to move to the neck of the woods to find fortune

Windchaser 3mo ago
Not getting wrecked in major land wars during the 1800s and 1900s also helped
- matthewdgreen 3mo ago
  We got wrecked in a major land war in the 1800s, just to be pedantic.
returningfory2 3mo ago
But the success hasn't ended since the unused land became taken; in fact, the US became a superpower after the westward expansion era. My point is that looking at conditions today, the US still continues to succeed (by some definition of success) and other countries should try to emulate the aspects of the country that leads to that success. IMO one of the big factors is how well immigrants assimilate in the country, and birthright citizenship is a part of that. I do agree with you that US success in the 19th century was due to many factors that are not relevant today.
insane_dreamer 3mo ago
> sheer immense amount of vast, mostly unused ,fertile land available in north America it was not "available", it only became "available" after we killed off nearly all the inhabitants and stole their land
- factcheckr 3mo ago
  This exaggerated lie always gets posted, but it's entirely inaccurate. The Indians were nomadic hunter-gatherers who were sparsely distributed around the US and moved seasonally. Diseases killed the majority. Inter-tribal warfare was the second leading cause of death (tribes that had been fighting for generations with rocks and sticks got access to horses, steel blades and guns and became much more lethal) and deaths attributable to European settlers were negligible compared to the first two causes.
  - insane_dreamer 3mo ago
    stop whitewashing it yes, diseases killed the majority, but the diseases didn't come out of nowhere, they came from the European occupiers. and inter-tribal warfare killed plenty. but we're talking about theft of "available" land: the Europeans took the land from the remaining inhabitants, killing those who resisted, and deceiving those who submitted through treaties which they repeatedly broke, leaving the natives, by design, with the worst, most infertile land in the country don't try to gloss it over and hand-wave it away -- yes, the natives were greatly diminished through the causes you mentioned, I never said the European occupiers killed them all, but it was genocide to finish them off and take all the land from anyone who resisted, effectively destroying their civilization and stop calling them "settlers", they did not "settle" the land, they took it by force and deception

greggoB 3mo ago

Define successful? (You'll probably want to avoid metrics like happiness indices and life expectancy though)

AnimalMuppet 3mo ago
At a minimum, it's been a place that people wanted to come to, more than they wanted to come to anywhere else in the world. That's successful as measured by people. (Or at least, people wanted to come until the last couple of years...)
- pixel_popping 3mo ago
  I'm not sure it's true, that seems to be mostly for economic reasons (which might define success, arguably), but I bet a lot more people would dream about living let say in Thailand than in the US, they just can't because they don't have the means.
returningfory2 3mo ago
Fair point. Mainly I agree with the sibling comment: the revealed preference of many people around the world, including many people from the richest countries in Europe, is to move the United States and then settle permanently. I think that means a lot. Obviously you can also say that the US is geopolitically successful because of its global military and diplomatic dominance, but I account zero value to this.
dmitrygr 3mo ago
Nobel prizes? Manned moon landings? Reserve currencies? AC units per capita?
- greggoB 3mo ago
  Are any of these stipulated as criteria anywhere? There's also proportion of adult in prisons, people who believe in angels, and the mass-shooting high score > AC units per capita This gave me a laugh