6 ms·

Presumably the OP has an address where he sent his iPhone. Not sure as IANAL, but he theoretically could sue a Doe at a given address and subpoena for an ident

Presumably the OP has an address where he sent his iPhone. Not sure as IANAL, but he theoretically could sue a Doe at a given address and subpoena for an identity.

prodigal_erik 14y ago
Don't scammers typically use some innocent person's address and pick up the shipment from their doorstep while they're at work?
URSpider94 14y ago
The scammer had it sent General Delivery. For those not familiar with the term (it's not used commonly these days), it's possible to have something shipped General Delivery to any post office, then walk in and pick it up. See https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm for more info. This seems like one of those arcane system hacks that's ripe for abuse. He/she presumably had to show some ID and sign something to get the package, but I'm betting that the ID was fake.
- DannyBee 14y ago
  You think general delivery is also his credit card billing address? Do you think he walks in with different fake ids every time he does this? Do you think he also uses different credit cards with paypal? Or do you picture him as a nomad, like the old guy from Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, traveling the country collecting fake ids, credit cards, and iphones? If he is super-master-ninja and all else failed, do you think it would be more or less expensive than court to honey pot him, ship him a box of rocks (or something that takes continual pictures and uploads it instantly) in a very bright pink package, fly super-economy to the place he is supposed to pick it up, and then sit in the post office a few days waiting to see your package picked up, and take pictures of the guy and his car plates? Unless of course, he only uses public transportation to cover his tracks (or steals random cars every time he needs to travel to the post office!), and wears facial disguises, sunglasses, and a hat to make sure no camera gets a good look at him. Never the same motel room twice, always paying cash, blah blah blah. Reality: It's actually very hard to hide when your fraud requires picking up physical items at a known location. It's easier to hide remotely, but not so much otherwise. Even remotely, i'd put 20 bucks down that given only the info the seller has about the guy, 4chan or reddit could find in 2 days or less.
  - URSpider94 14y ago
    Dude, funny reply, but I never said that he was un-findable. The parent suggested sending a subpoena to the shipping address, which isn't likely to work in this case. Also keep in mind that the OP doesn't have the guy's credit card number, PayPal does -- and I bet they are not handing it over.
    - DannyBee 14y ago
      Sorry, I was in a snarky mood :) It seems every 2 months there is another popular blog post about how impossible it is to be a seller and how there is just no way to deal with the fraud. They act like once it involves more than email or phone, it's all impossible. But, yes, sending to shipping address is unlikely to work. Paypal will turn over the info if you subpoena them (you will have to open a miscellaneous matter in california and subpoena them there, but this is not a big deal). If you are law enforcement, they will turn it over much faster, but unlike Google/et al, they generally do not object. In fact, here's a great example of this: http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2011mc80019/236584/16/0.pdf http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/califor... "Google has not produced documents, paypal has" :) They are in a pretty different position, so i can't blame them. Your bank would turn over records in response to a simple subpoena as well. Unlike your bank, Paypal will give notice and time to object to the guy, but if he objects, he will have to do so in court (and then you'd know who it is or otherwise be able to sue them directly as a doe, and so it won't matter), or paypal will turn over the records.
      - codenerdz 14y ago
        Thanks for your comments Danny. You make this process seem so simple that im eager to learn it. Can you outline steps necessary to subpoena paypal without having access to an expensive legal letterhead(that comes with an hourly legal bill attached) and to actually follow through this subpoena into getting requested documents. I was able to get a phone number for supposedly a legal department, but I was told in so many terms to only have a lawyer call them. Im sure if pressed, paypal would give out their legal teams address.
psionski 14y ago
Is IANAL some new Apple product?
- isnotchicago 14y ago
  "I am not a lawyer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANAL (Unless you were being facetious, in which case, carry on.)

Presumably the OP has an address where he sent his iPhone. Not sure as IANAL, but he theoretically could sue a Doe at a given address and subpoena for an identity.

prodigal_erik 14y ago

Don't scammers typically use some innocent person's address and pick up the shipment from their doorstep while they're at work?

URSpider94 14y ago

The scammer had it sent General Delivery. For those not familiar with the term (it's not used commonly these days), it's possible to have something shipped General Delivery to any post office, then walk in and pick it up. See https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm https://www.usps.com/manage/forward-mail.htm for more info. This seems like one of those arcane system hacks that's ripe for abuse. He/she presumably had to show some ID and sign something to get the package, but I'm betting that the ID was fake.

DannyBee 14y ago
You think general delivery is also his credit card billing address? Do you think he walks in with different fake ids every time he does this? Do you think he also uses different credit cards with paypal? Or do you picture him as a nomad, like the old guy from Kung Fu: The Legend Continues, traveling the country collecting fake ids, credit cards, and iphones? If he is super-master-ninja and all else failed, do you think it would be more or less expensive than court to honey pot him, ship him a box of rocks (or something that takes continual pictures and uploads it instantly) in a very bright pink package, fly super-economy to the place he is supposed to pick it up, and then sit in the post office a few days waiting to see your package picked up, and take pictures of the guy and his car plates? Unless of course, he only uses public transportation to cover his tracks (or steals random cars every time he needs to travel to the post office!), and wears facial disguises, sunglasses, and a hat to make sure no camera gets a good look at him. Never the same motel room twice, always paying cash, blah blah blah. Reality: It's actually very hard to hide when your fraud requires picking up physical items at a known location. It's easier to hide remotely, but not so much otherwise. Even remotely, i'd put 20 bucks down that given only the info the seller has about the guy, 4chan or reddit could find in 2 days or less.
- URSpider94 14y ago
  Dude, funny reply, but I never said that he was un-findable. The parent suggested sending a subpoena to the shipping address, which isn't likely to work in this case. Also keep in mind that the OP doesn't have the guy's credit card number, PayPal does -- and I bet they are not handing it over.
  - DannyBee 14y ago
    Sorry, I was in a snarky mood :) It seems every 2 months there is another popular blog post about how impossible it is to be a seller and how there is just no way to deal with the fraud. They act like once it involves more than email or phone, it's all impossible. But, yes, sending to shipping address is unlikely to work. Paypal will turn over the info if you subpoena them (you will have to open a miscellaneous matter in california and subpoena them there, but this is not a big deal). If you are law enforcement, they will turn it over much faster, but unlike Google/et al, they generally do not object. In fact, here's a great example of this: http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/5:2011mc80019/236584/16/0.pdf http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/califor... "Google has not produced documents, paypal has" :) They are in a pretty different position, so i can't blame them. Your bank would turn over records in response to a simple subpoena as well. Unlike your bank, Paypal will give notice and time to object to the guy, but if he objects, he will have to do so in court (and then you'd know who it is or otherwise be able to sue them directly as a doe, and so it won't matter), or paypal will turn over the records.
    - codenerdz 14y ago
      Thanks for your comments Danny. You make this process seem so simple that im eager to learn it. Can you outline steps necessary to subpoena paypal without having access to an expensive legal letterhead(that comes with an hourly legal bill attached) and to actually follow through this subpoena into getting requested documents. I was able to get a phone number for supposedly a legal department, but I was told in so many terms to only have a lawyer call them. Im sure if pressed, paypal would give out their legal teams address.

psionski 14y ago

Is IANAL some new Apple product?

isnotchicago 14y ago
"I am not a lawyer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANAL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANAL (Unless you were being facetious, in which case, carry on.)