5 ms·

The only real reason for me in the UK to join a union would be for legal representation, otherwise I can represent my own interests. At least here in the UK ou

by bArray 3mo ago

The only real reason for me in the UK to join a union would be for legal representation, otherwise I can represent my own interests. At least here in the UK our unions are heavily involved in politics - which is a massive issue. Currently, the leadership of the unions and the people in them are literally opposite sides of the political spectrum.

irl_ 3mo ago
At any moment some change outside my control could occur and my place in society would change. Right now I'm pretty self sufficient and don't really need the support of others in day to day life, but that can change, and there's nothing I can do about it. Seems like a good idea to use this opportunity to try and improve things for everyone, even if you don't care about others, just in case your place in society changes. (I actually think it's neat if we try to improve things for everyone for everyone's sake tbh but I get there are people that do not have such empathy)
- mytailorisrich 3mo ago
  It depends on the job and country. In Western Europe workers are very protected so unless you are in a low end job or specific public sector job and might gain from collective wage bargaining there is often little actual benefits in being in a union, taking into account that membership isn't free.
  - 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3mo ago
    I wonder why workers in Western Europe are so protected.
    - mytailorisrich 3mo ago
      The fact that unions played a big role in the past does not imply that they are as important now because of the changes in legal protection, types of jobs, and society.
      - 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3mo ago
        If you believe the legal protections in place as a direct result of the labour movement (of which Unions are just one part) will remain in place in the face of constant well funded opposition by Capital then I have a case study for you in the UK, we call them Zero Hours Contracts.
        iamacyborg 3mo ago
        Another UK example, you effectively have very limited rights until you’ve worked for a company for 2 years. Before then they can fire you for any reason they care to.
        arethuza 3mo ago
        I think that is changing though: https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/ https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/
        iamacyborg 3mo ago
        who knows what's going to happens with yet another leadership change though.
        mytailorisrich 3mo ago
        Zero hours contracts were never banned in the UK and in fact have been restricted over the years and debate is still ongoing on whether to ban them altogether. We have diverged significantly from my original point...
      - tovej 3mo ago
        Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions. Just look at Finland. Here, the current government first made it illegal for unions to strike when the government takes action to weaken employment law, and then they significantly weakened employment law. The only protection left is collective bargaining agreements, which can still uphold some of the old legal protections through contract law. This was also only possible after decades of work by industry lobby groups to significantly weaken unions by targeting them with tax code changes, splitting up unemployment funds from unions (with the employers then founding their own unemployment fund, so that union membership is drained). Unions are the only defense that workers have. If there are no unions, the employer can have their pick among desperate job seekers, and give them the lowest wage they can live on.
- bArray 3mo ago
  Paying into the legal pot makes sense, as does paying into a medical pot. But its not clear to me that mixing politics and unions is a good idea, especially as their typical support base have politically drifted from them.
DrBazza 3mo ago
The Labour party was founded by unions, so it's no surprise they're still completely beholden to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Labour_Party_(UK)# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Labour_Party_(U...
- bArray 3mo ago
  I understand why there is that relationship, but it appears the people that make the main membership and the leadership in the unions/Labour party have drifted apart. So now you have this weird situation where the unions and the Labour party are funded by people that are largely ideologically opposed.
  - DrBazza 3mo ago
    That's UK politics in general, which I suppose is microcosm of the UK. Everything is now a career. We have many, many, sitting MPs, that have only ever studied topics like politics with the sole aim of becoming a politician. Or never worked in private industry, or even worked in the public sector in parts that aren't necessarily unionized. In the past many MPs had 'life experience' outside of politics. They are therefore naturally detached from unions, and more worryingly, the every day reality of the electorate. For some of these MPs, losing their seat at a General Election is the first time in their entire lives they've ever lost a job, unlike the general public that have to put up with routine dismissals, via redundancy, company bankruptcy and so on.

by bArray 3mo ago

irl_ 3mo ago

At any moment some change outside my control could occur and my place in society would change. Right now I'm pretty self sufficient and don't really need the support of others in day to day life, but that can change, and there's nothing I can do about it. Seems like a good idea to use this opportunity to try and improve things for everyone, even if you don't care about others, just in case your place in society changes. (I actually think it's neat if we try to improve things for everyone for everyone's sake tbh but I get there are people that do not have such empathy)

mytailorisrich 3mo ago
It depends on the job and country. In Western Europe workers are very protected so unless you are in a low end job or specific public sector job and might gain from collective wage bargaining there is often little actual benefits in being in a union, taking into account that membership isn't free.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3mo ago
  I wonder why workers in Western Europe are so protected.
  - mytailorisrich 3mo ago
    The fact that unions played a big role in the past does not imply that they are as important now because of the changes in legal protection, types of jobs, and society.
    - 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 3mo ago
      If you believe the legal protections in place as a direct result of the labour movement (of which Unions are just one part) will remain in place in the face of constant well funded opposition by Capital then I have a case study for you in the UK, we call them Zero Hours Contracts.
      - iamacyborg 3mo ago
        Another UK example, you effectively have very limited rights until you’ve worked for a company for 2 years. Before then they can fire you for any reason they care to.
        arethuza 3mo ago
        I think that is changing though: https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/ https://www.business.gov.uk/campaign/employment-changes/
        iamacyborg 3mo ago
        who knows what's going to happens with yet another leadership change though.
      - mytailorisrich 3mo ago
        Zero hours contracts were never banned in the UK and in fact have been restricted over the years and debate is still ongoing on whether to ban them altogether. We have diverged significantly from my original point...
    - tovej 3mo ago
      Those legal protections are easily eroded without unions. Just look at Finland. Here, the current government first made it illegal for unions to strike when the government takes action to weaken employment law, and then they significantly weakened employment law. The only protection left is collective bargaining agreements, which can still uphold some of the old legal protections through contract law. This was also only possible after decades of work by industry lobby groups to significantly weaken unions by targeting them with tax code changes, splitting up unemployment funds from unions (with the employers then founding their own unemployment fund, so that union membership is drained). Unions are the only defense that workers have. If there are no unions, the employer can have their pick among desperate job seekers, and give them the lowest wage they can live on.
bArray 3mo ago
Paying into the legal pot makes sense, as does paying into a medical pot. But its not clear to me that mixing politics and unions is a good idea, especially as their typical support base have politically drifted from them.

DrBazza 3mo ago

The Labour party was founded by unions, so it's no surprise they're still completely beholden to them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Labour_Party_(UK)# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Labour_Party_(U...

bArray 3mo ago
I understand why there is that relationship, but it appears the people that make the main membership and the leadership in the unions/Labour party have drifted apart. So now you have this weird situation where the unions and the Labour party are funded by people that are largely ideologically opposed.
- DrBazza 3mo ago
  That's UK politics in general, which I suppose is microcosm of the UK. Everything is now a career. We have many, many, sitting MPs, that have only ever studied topics like politics with the sole aim of becoming a politician. Or never worked in private industry, or even worked in the public sector in parts that aren't necessarily unionized. In the past many MPs had 'life experience' outside of politics. They are therefore naturally detached from unions, and more worryingly, the every day reality of the electorate. For some of these MPs, losing their seat at a General Election is the first time in their entire lives they've ever lost a job, unlike the general public that have to put up with routine dismissals, via redundancy, company bankruptcy and so on.