6 ms·

I always find it funny that americans think the button to oppose a payement doesn't exists on my banking app because I have a debit card and not a credit card.

by Kuinox 3mo ago

rpdillon 3mo ago
It's mostly about who possesses the money. With debit, the money is transferred. With credit, the money is scheduled for transfer, subject to my approval. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_t...
- lxgr 3mo ago
  This has basically nothing to do with it. A bank deposit is a liability of the bank, and possession is not a useful lens here. What matters are the legal and contractual rights and obligations you have against the card issuer. In the US, these are historically different for credit cards (Fed Regulation Z) and debit cards (Regulation E), but since it's now effectively the same two schemes running it all and imposing their additional liability protections (largely motivated by considerations of brand perception, which would suffer if the same logo sometimes confers weaker protections). The main practical difference nowadays is that in the case of debit cards, you're out your own money for a few days, while with credit cards, the only thing that temporarily suffers is your open-to-buy/line of credit.
  - dmoy 3mo ago
    > The main practical difference nowadays is that in the case of debit cards, you're out your own money for a few days, while with credit cards, the only thing that temporarily suffers is your open-to-buy/line of credit Right, and this is GGP's main point The risk to a debit card user in the US is higher because the money you need to pay your rent or mortgage may temporarily disappear due to fraud, and may take longer to resolve than your deadline with your landlord. When using a credit card, that risk is not on you.
    - lxgr 3mo ago
      Why would this risk be higher in the US than in Europe? Europeans usually pay their rent/mortgage using bank transfers too.
      - dmoy 3mo ago
        The risk isn't bank transfers to your bank for your mortgage. The risk is card skimmers at a gas station or whatever. The theft isn't when you pay your rent, the theft is something preventing you from paying your rent, due to some totally unrelated prior transaction. I think the risk is higher in the US compared to Europe because Europe was way faster to roll out chip stuff, whereas in the US it's still somewhat common to have to use the mag stripe.
  - rpdillon 3mo ago
    Ah, I see. This is about the prevailing consumer protections. In the US, debit is not treated with nearly as much privilege as the EU. While credit signals debt in the EU, debit signals poor financial situation in the US, since credit enjoys protections debit does not.
margalabargala 3mo ago
In your rush to dunk on Americans you misunderstood the comment. Everyone in America is perfectly aware that the "dispute" button exists. Trouble is, the lag time between hitting the button and getting your money back can be weeks. With a credit card you are out zero money.
- Kuinox 3mo ago
  > the lag time between hitting the button and getting your money back can be weeks. Nope, it's as soon as the bank is aware. In your rush to correct me, you failed to understand that there are simply better customers protection here which make a product such as a credit card mostly useless.
  - margalabargala 3mo ago
    Big if true.
    - hedgedoops2 3mo ago
      Pretty sure that debit chargebacks lead to an instant credit (by regulation). I'm almost tempted to test it right now but I am pretty sure I did this once and it took under 1 day Ok now I asked a chatbot for how this is regulated. The answer was wrong as expected but it happened to mention the applicable regulation which can be looked up at gesezte-im-internet.de § 675u BGB - requires immediate credit for unauthorized card payments § 675x BGB - chargeback in 10 days for direct debit transactions (lastschrift) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__675x.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__675x.html I guess this is just germany but I vagely remember a payment processor eu directive that this is probably implementing (PSD) -> Yes. It is article 73 and 76 of PSD https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32015L2366 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... So this holds EU wide for all banks. This was literally 15 mins of googling (well duckduck ing) on the train. Now there still could be counterveiling evidence and ianal etc, so use grain of salt. Gotta get off now.
  - mlyons1340 3mo ago

I always find it funny that americans think the button to oppose a payement doesn't exists on my banking app because I have a debit card and not a credit card.

by Kuinox 3mo ago

I always find it funny that americans think the button to oppose a payement doesn't exists on my banking app because I have a debit card and not a credit card.

rpdillon 3mo ago

It's mostly about who possesses the money. With debit, the money is transferred. With credit, the money is scheduled for transfer, subject to my approval. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_t...

lxgr 3mo ago
This has basically nothing to do with it. A bank deposit is a liability of the bank, and possession is not a useful lens here. What matters are the legal and contractual rights and obligations you have against the card issuer. In the US, these are historically different for credit cards (Fed Regulation Z) and debit cards (Regulation E), but since it's now effectively the same two schemes running it all and imposing their additional liability protections (largely motivated by considerations of brand perception, which would suffer if the same logo sometimes confers weaker protections). The main practical difference nowadays is that in the case of debit cards, you're out your own money for a few days, while with credit cards, the only thing that temporarily suffers is your open-to-buy/line of credit.
- dmoy 3mo ago
  > The main practical difference nowadays is that in the case of debit cards, you're out your own money for a few days, while with credit cards, the only thing that temporarily suffers is your open-to-buy/line of credit Right, and this is GGP's main point The risk to a debit card user in the US is higher because the money you need to pay your rent or mortgage may temporarily disappear due to fraud, and may take longer to resolve than your deadline with your landlord. When using a credit card, that risk is not on you.
  - lxgr 3mo ago
    Why would this risk be higher in the US than in Europe? Europeans usually pay their rent/mortgage using bank transfers too.
    - dmoy 3mo ago
      The risk isn't bank transfers to your bank for your mortgage. The risk is card skimmers at a gas station or whatever. The theft isn't when you pay your rent, the theft is something preventing you from paying your rent, due to some totally unrelated prior transaction. I think the risk is higher in the US compared to Europe because Europe was way faster to roll out chip stuff, whereas in the US it's still somewhat common to have to use the mag stripe.
- rpdillon 3mo ago
  Ah, I see. This is about the prevailing consumer protections. In the US, debit is not treated with nearly as much privilege as the EU. While credit signals debt in the EU, debit signals poor financial situation in the US, since credit enjoys protections debit does not.

margalabargala 3mo ago

In your rush to dunk on Americans you misunderstood the comment. Everyone in America is perfectly aware that the "dispute" button exists. Trouble is, the lag time between hitting the button and getting your money back can be weeks. With a credit card you are out zero money.

Kuinox 3mo ago
> the lag time between hitting the button and getting your money back can be weeks. Nope, it's as soon as the bank is aware. In your rush to correct me, you failed to understand that there are simply better customers protection here which make a product such as a credit card mostly useless.
- margalabargala 3mo ago
  Big if true.
  - hedgedoops2 3mo ago
    Pretty sure that debit chargebacks lead to an instant credit (by regulation). I'm almost tempted to test it right now but I am pretty sure I did this once and it took under 1 day Ok now I asked a chatbot for how this is regulated. The answer was wrong as expected but it happened to mention the applicable regulation which can be looked up at gesezte-im-internet.de § 675u BGB - requires immediate credit for unauthorized card payments § 675x BGB - chargeback in 10 days for direct debit transactions (lastschrift) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__675x.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bgb/__675x.html I guess this is just germany but I vagely remember a payment processor eu directive that this is probably implementing (PSD) -> Yes. It is article 73 and 76 of PSD https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32015L2366 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL... So this holds EU wide for all banks. This was literally 15 mins of googling (well duckduck ing) on the train. Now there still could be counterveiling evidence and ianal etc, so use grain of salt. Gotta get off now.
- mlyons1340 3mo ago