6 ms·

The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently. British person living in Berlin.

gpvos 3mo ago
Incorrect. They wouldn't fit in the tiny UK loading gauge (profile). UK trains are indeed variants of continental models, but made to custom size, and many (most?) of them in the UK.
- ErroneousBosh 3mo ago
  Leide nicht. Trains in Germany and the UK for main-line running both use 1435mm gauge. UK trains are not a custom size.
  - gpvos 3mo ago
    They are. Rail gauge and loading gauge are different concepts. Use Wikipedia.
  - phatfish 3mo ago
    Everything about UK rail is custom (apart from the gauge). Apparently it's one of the (many) reasons HS2 is such a mess. They were trying to run trains faster than typical continental high speed lines, which meant custom design work that needs loads of additional testing and certification. Rather than just use the Spanish or French high speed designs.
    - dcel 3mo ago
      Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. This is entirely in line with many other modern HS lines. China’s been running regular 360km/h services for years. This is a project with a 200+ year shelf life. Designing to 300 or less would have been short sighted, and many of the changes to accommodate such high speeds actually reduce costs in the long term (slab track, headroom to catch up delayed services, ability for one trainset to operate more services per day etc). The cost overruns of HS2 are primarily from plain old poor project management, complex planning law and constant political meddling, not engineering decisions.
      - bluGill 3mo ago
        China has run at 360kmh before, but last I checked they mostly run slower. Air resistance is a killer as you go faster. So for trains 300 is usually about the best compromise between energy use and speed. If you want to go faster a jet at altitude is going to be much faster at a better fuel efficiency. High speeds make sense for long distances.
        dcel 3mo ago
        This is a project designed to last for centuries. We’re not even fossil free yet and already seeing days of negative electricity cost thanks to renewables. In 50 years the extra energy cost is going to be a rounding error. Locking ourselves into 300km/h forever to save a relatively small sum is unfathomably short sighted.
      - tonyedgecombe 3mo ago
        One of the drivers of cost has been the high speed part. It meant the route needed to be straight which meant more tunnelling to avoid certain areas. Lower speed track would have allowed them to route around problem areas.
        dcel 3mo ago
        High speed rail does not need to be straight! You can get away with 6km radii at 360km/h on dedicated passenger lines. The high power output of the EMUs they’ve selected and all new OHLE power supplies mean that trains can accelerate and decelerate much more aggressively than on legacy mixed use lines like the WCML, allowing smaller radii in practice with short slower sections. It’s a myth that HS2 is expensive because it had to be straight. The vast majority of the tunnelling for HS2 has been either to get in and out of dense urban areas without too much demolition, or to reduce the political cost of driving a building site through Tory heartlands (Chilterns AONB).
      - gib444 3mo ago
        > Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. That's already been reduced to 320 km/h under this year's "HS2 reset". Which I imagine in reality will be 300 km/h normally at most, with even lower speeds seen day to day Interestingly the written report to the government stated "However, no railway in the UK, or globally, is currently engineered for 360 kph". Are you incorrect or did they forget to include China in their research? Anyway, I thought these were last decade's talking points? I thought it was all about capacity now, not speed? Except I thought there were also rumblings about reducing capacity from the previous announcements? Hard to keep up...!
  - LargoLasskhyfv 3mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_gauge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_gauge / Lichtraumprofil are different.
ahartmetz 3mo ago
Deutsche Bahn doesn't manufacture rolling stock. They buy it from Siemens, Stadler, Talgo, Alstom etc... Edit: AFAIK, some of it - mainly high-speed trains - is designed according to DB specs and subsequently offered under a new name (and with changes) to other train companies. For example DB ICE 3 (manufactured by Siemens) / Siemens Velaro.
- SiempreViernes 3mo ago
  You can probably buy some of the older rolling stock from DB thought.
  - bennofs 3mo ago
    There is even a website just for that: https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=222825306192 https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=2228...
    - deleted 3mo ago
      [deleted]
  - ahartmetz 3mo ago
    It does happen occasionally, but DB tends to run, maintain and sometimes upgrade its successful (~reliable and widely introduced) rolling stock until it falls apart or is grossly outdated (40+ years old). Rail passenger numbers are increasing, so there is no need to sell stuff to downsize. The Flixtrain company uses 40+ years old IC (intercity) cars - they have no air conditioning and it's really loud inside with open windows, especially so in tunnels. That is the kind of stuff that DB sells.
    - LargoLasskhyfv 3mo ago
      Hrrm. Funny. I thought that those were so called "Eurofima", which I remember as fucking cold in summer, because then their AC were set at full blast, which was annoying at the times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach Also no real opening of windows anymore, because early onset of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrzeuge https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrz... <- meaning pressure protection against passing trains at high speeds, entering tunnels, and such.
gib444 3mo ago
> The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently. This is totally incorrect. We buy our trains from French/Swiss/German/Spanish/Belgian manufacturers, or build them ourselves in eg Derby. We do not buy our trains from DB.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]

gpvos 3mo ago

Incorrect. They wouldn't fit in the tiny UK loading gauge (profile). UK trains are indeed variants of continental models, but made to custom size, and many (most?) of them in the UK.

ErroneousBosh 3mo ago
Leide nicht. Trains in Germany and the UK for main-line running both use 1435mm gauge. UK trains are not a custom size.
- gpvos 3mo ago
  They are. Rail gauge and loading gauge are different concepts. Use Wikipedia.
- phatfish 3mo ago
  Everything about UK rail is custom (apart from the gauge). Apparently it's one of the (many) reasons HS2 is such a mess. They were trying to run trains faster than typical continental high speed lines, which meant custom design work that needs loads of additional testing and certification. Rather than just use the Spanish or French high speed designs.
  - dcel 3mo ago
    Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. This is entirely in line with many other modern HS lines. China’s been running regular 360km/h services for years. This is a project with a 200+ year shelf life. Designing to 300 or less would have been short sighted, and many of the changes to accommodate such high speeds actually reduce costs in the long term (slab track, headroom to catch up delayed services, ability for one trainset to operate more services per day etc). The cost overruns of HS2 are primarily from plain old poor project management, complex planning law and constant political meddling, not engineering decisions.
    - bluGill 3mo ago
      China has run at 360kmh before, but last I checked they mostly run slower. Air resistance is a killer as you go faster. So for trains 300 is usually about the best compromise between energy use and speed. If you want to go faster a jet at altitude is going to be much faster at a better fuel efficiency. High speeds make sense for long distances.
      - dcel 3mo ago
        This is a project designed to last for centuries. We’re not even fossil free yet and already seeing days of negative electricity cost thanks to renewables. In 50 years the extra energy cost is going to be a rounding error. Locking ourselves into 300km/h forever to save a relatively small sum is unfathomably short sighted.
    - tonyedgecombe 3mo ago
      One of the drivers of cost has been the high speed part. It meant the route needed to be straight which meant more tunnelling to avoid certain areas. Lower speed track would have allowed them to route around problem areas.
      - dcel 3mo ago
        High speed rail does not need to be straight! You can get away with 6km radii at 360km/h on dedicated passenger lines. The high power output of the EMUs they’ve selected and all new OHLE power supplies mean that trains can accelerate and decelerate much more aggressively than on legacy mixed use lines like the WCML, allowing smaller radii in practice with short slower sections. It’s a myth that HS2 is expensive because it had to be straight. The vast majority of the tunnelling for HS2 has been either to get in and out of dense urban areas without too much demolition, or to reduce the political cost of driving a building site through Tory heartlands (Chilterns AONB).
    - gib444 3mo ago
      > Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. That's already been reduced to 320 km/h under this year's "HS2 reset". Which I imagine in reality will be 300 km/h normally at most, with even lower speeds seen day to day Interestingly the written report to the government stated "However, no railway in the UK, or globally, is currently engineered for 360 kph". Are you incorrect or did they forget to include China in their research? Anyway, I thought these were last decade's talking points? I thought it was all about capacity now, not speed? Except I thought there were also rumblings about reducing capacity from the previous announcements? Hard to keep up...!
- LargoLasskhyfv 3mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_gauge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_gauge / Lichtraumprofil are different.

ahartmetz 3mo ago

Deutsche Bahn doesn't manufacture rolling stock. They buy it from Siemens, Stadler, Talgo, Alstom etc... Edit: AFAIK, some of it - mainly high-speed trains - is designed according to DB specs and subsequently offered under a new name (and with changes) to other train companies. For example DB ICE 3 (manufactured by Siemens) / Siemens Velaro.

SiempreViernes 3mo ago
You can probably buy some of the older rolling stock from DB thought.
- bennofs 3mo ago
  There is even a website just for that: https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=222825306192 https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=2228...
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
- ahartmetz 3mo ago
  It does happen occasionally, but DB tends to run, maintain and sometimes upgrade its successful (~reliable and widely introduced) rolling stock until it falls apart or is grossly outdated (40+ years old). Rail passenger numbers are increasing, so there is no need to sell stuff to downsize. The Flixtrain company uses 40+ years old IC (intercity) cars - they have no air conditioning and it's really loud inside with open windows, especially so in tunnels. That is the kind of stuff that DB sells.
  - LargoLasskhyfv 3mo ago
    Hrrm. Funny. I thought that those were so called "Eurofima", which I remember as fucking cold in summer, because then their AC were set at full blast, which was annoying at the times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach Also no real opening of windows anymore, because early onset of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrzeuge https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrz... <- meaning pressure protection against passing trains at high speeds, entering tunnels, and such.

gib444 3mo ago

> The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently. This is totally incorrect. We buy our trains from French/Swiss/German/Spanish/Belgian manufacturers, or build them ourselves in eg Derby. We do not buy our trains from DB.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]