6 ms·

It's a shame that, being based on a full-blown Linux SBPC, it has an absolutely unacceptable boot time for a camera. 22 seconds. I can have my iPhone camera out

by Fwirt 3mo ago

It's a shame that, being based on a full-blown Linux SBPC, it has an absolutely unacceptable boot time for a camera. 22 seconds. I can have my iPhone camera out and ready to capture an ephemeral moment of child's play in under 3 seconds, most commercial cameras boot in seconds as well. A film camera can be ready to go the second the lens cap is off. 22 seconds is an eternity in the world of photography. It's a shame that the SoC the Raspberry Pi line is based on has no kernel support (or IIRC hardware support) for S3 or anything similar.

e12e 3mo ago
Not from off state, though? Granted I still expect the iphone to boot quicker than 20 seconds.
- serf 3mo ago
  yeah it's pretty fair if you compare them apples to apples. an iphone boots in 15-20s depending on how stale things are, you'll presumably need to unlock it, and then navigate to the camera app however you do so. it's just presumed you wont have to boot your phone.
fellowmartian 3mo ago
It’s possible to boot Linux in seconds, it’d just be a terrible developer experience.
- zokier 3mo ago
  The problem is RPi though, and all the junk it runs before booting Linux.
ktpsns 3mo ago
It's unfair to compare an idling deep sleep device with a cold boot. However, there is a shortcut: Just don't boot a full OS (thinking of custom firmware which boots in fractions of seconds, standard in the Microcontroller world). Or boot an optimized Linux user space. I am confident with a bit fiddling one can bring down a standard SBC Linux to a few seconds from cold to ready.
- DrewADesign 3mo ago
  Functional comparisons among devices within a category are always fair. Pointing out a device’s perceived shortcomings is not an attack on the people that made it. One crucial role designers play (ideally) in product development is seeking out honest feedback, filtering it, and figuring out if that feedback can help make the product better for end users. The FOSS landscape needs a lot more of that.
  - saltmate 3mo ago
    > Functional comparisons among devices within a category are always fair When they have the same prerequisites, yes. But then you need to count in the time the iPhone needs to boot as well, which will probably mean you are at a similar range.
    - DrewADesign 3mo ago
      Ok, now read the other three sentences that explain why I said that.
    - Fwirt 3mo ago
      No, because the criteria here is state transition from not-in-use/power saving to in-use/"on". The Pi Zero has no meaningful sleep state, as I lamented above, thus the only valid "off-on" state transition for the Optocam Zero is a full boot. Sure, if you were to leave it on in your bag then there's no boot time, but then you're limited to 70-80 minutes of runtime. Then you get "instant-on", but you're limited to the photos you can take within an hour off the charger, which also renders it useless as a camera, and compares unfavorably to the iPhone . If it had a sleep state then we could compare apples to apples. Since the iPhone's default "off" state is sleep, that's what counts for "turning it on".
      - DrewADesign 3mo ago
        You don’t even need to technically justify the comparison. Apples and oranges can be compared if you’re discussing how useful each is for a particular purpose or in a particular context. Oranges are nice because the skin proffers protection from soil and bumps during travel. Apples are nice because you don’t have to peel them or deal with sections — you just bite hunks off of it. If you’re not throwing it in your bag, the shortcomings of the Apple might be totally irrelevant. If you’re going on a picnic, the convenience of the Apple might be less important. Similarly, it wouldn’t make much sense to abstractly compare whether moving trucks or motorcycles are better. It makes complete sense to say one has better cargo capacity, and one is way more fun to operate.
serf 3mo ago
you can get a zero booting under 10 seconds fairly reliably. still slower than a hot phone with an app, but it's faster than 22s.
luqtas 3mo ago
i built my own camera out of a Zero 2W [0] and by disabling Picam2 and letting the OS (Debian Bullseye) idle, i can get 2 days of shots and some videos while i walk around the city/hiking out of 3 18650 batteries... bringing 3 spare batteries in my backpack never put me needing battery in any situation! starting Picam2 takes a fraction of a second [0] https://happort.org/camera https://happort.org/camera
iamnothere 3mo ago
I bet this could be changed to seconds if a unikernel type approach were used. There’s no need to boot a full OS. I understand the developer starting with Linux, though, as I’m sure it’s easier for debugging.
dofm 3mo ago
The early Sony Alpha A7 cameras run Android (really: you could jailbreak and write your own PlayMemories apps) https://github.com/ma1co/sony-pmca-re https://github.com/ma1co/sony-pmca-re https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/59226/does-the-sony-a7-run-android-or-if-not-is-there-another-way-to-write-applicati https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/59226/does-the-son... So there must have been a way to do this at that time. (I suspect a simpler subsystem does initial boot response). I did contemplate building something around one of the Arducam modules and an RP2350.
- numpad0 3mo ago
  They always ran Linux and Sony ported AOSP userland to it. So it's slightly different to real Android, and those cameras are not always in that mode.
- mschuster91 3mo ago
  > So there must have been a way to do this at that time. (I suspect a simpler subsystem does initial boot response). They heavily use suspend-to-flash.
beezlewax 3mo ago
Cameras shouldn't need to boot at all.
- rlt 3mo ago
  Pretty much everything has a boot sequence of some kind, it just might be very quick.
interloxia 3mo ago
My kid has a Fisher-Price Kid Tough camera. It's excellent for us but the pictures are so bad even the kid is disappointed. It would be fun to repace the guts with something like this project but a long boot time is a deal breaker. Perhaps the software can be optimised or a DIY friendly pi pico project is the way.
a96 3mo ago
Comparing that to a real camera: I can "quick draw" pick up a Nikon DSLR that's off, flick the power switch and hit the shutter button one handed in one motion as fast as I can move and there's a good picture on the screen as soon as I let go of the trigger. Double click trash can and it's gone. Either will take less than half a second. Battery life is so long I usually forget to charge it. I suspect the power switch is just a "key lock" that prevents triggering anything because there's no delay. Either that or it's a wakeup in the microcontroller range of timing. (You can easily get jank by filling up the buffer or slow memory card or autofocusing on something impossible, possibly in the dark etc, of course.)
shrx 3mo ago
There have been attempts to make the Pi boot faster (by disabling the initialization of various subsystems), e.g.: https://github.com/IronOxidizer/instant-pi https://github.com/IronOxidizer/instant-pi https://himeshp.blogspot.com/2018/08/fast-boot-with-raspberry-pi.html https://himeshp.blogspot.com/2018/08/fast-boot-with-raspberr... https://kittenlabs.de/blog/2024/09/01/extreme-pi-boot-optimization/ https://kittenlabs.de/blog/2024/09/01/extreme-pi-boot-optimi... (previously featured here too https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41420597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41420597)
ianbooker 3mo ago
Things lost to time: The Minolta Dimage A1 had contacts for detecting when gripped, so it could ready itself without any button pressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_Dimage_A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_Dimage_A1 (You see it in the pic, but its not described in the article).
witx 3mo ago
I agree with the premise but that's a bad comparison. If you have your iphone off, do you get to the camera in 3 seconds as well, after booting?
KingOfCoders 3mo ago
Nice, my Google 10 I feel boots rather fast but I'd say 5sec to boot, unlock, camera +5 secs so it would be 10 for me - 3 seconds I envy you.
voidUpdate 3mo ago
https://mitxela.com/projects/thermal_paper_polaroid https://mitxela.com/projects/thermal_paper_polaroid talks about making a camera with a raspberry pi, and by using Buildroot they got it down to acceptable boot times
numpad0 3mo ago
Sub 2-second booting Linux is generally possible, either by bundling everything into a big image or by creating a fixed hibernation file and resuming from it. That's what they do for real embedded systems, but the downside is that they tend to be monolithic and not so update or modding friendly. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTcP3xeLrEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTcP3xeLrEY

by Fwirt 3mo ago

e12e 3mo ago

Not from off state, though? Granted I still expect the iphone to boot quicker than 20 seconds.

serf 3mo ago
yeah it's pretty fair if you compare them apples to apples. an iphone boots in 15-20s depending on how stale things are, you'll presumably need to unlock it, and then navigate to the camera app however you do so. it's just presumed you wont have to boot your phone.

fellowmartian 3mo ago

It’s possible to boot Linux in seconds, it’d just be a terrible developer experience.

zokier 3mo ago
The problem is RPi though, and all the junk it runs before booting Linux.

ktpsns 3mo ago

It's unfair to compare an idling deep sleep device with a cold boot. However, there is a shortcut: Just don't boot a full OS (thinking of custom firmware which boots in fractions of seconds, standard in the Microcontroller world). Or boot an optimized Linux user space. I am confident with a bit fiddling one can bring down a standard SBC Linux to a few seconds from cold to ready.

DrewADesign 3mo ago
Functional comparisons among devices within a category are always fair. Pointing out a device’s perceived shortcomings is not an attack on the people that made it. One crucial role designers play (ideally) in product development is seeking out honest feedback, filtering it, and figuring out if that feedback can help make the product better for end users. The FOSS landscape needs a lot more of that.
- saltmate 3mo ago
  > Functional comparisons among devices within a category are always fair When they have the same prerequisites, yes. But then you need to count in the time the iPhone needs to boot as well, which will probably mean you are at a similar range.
  - DrewADesign 3mo ago
    Ok, now read the other three sentences that explain why I said that.
  - Fwirt 3mo ago
    No, because the criteria here is state transition from not-in-use/power saving to in-use/"on". The Pi Zero has no meaningful sleep state, as I lamented above, thus the only valid "off-on" state transition for the Optocam Zero is a full boot. Sure, if you were to leave it on in your bag then there's no boot time, but then you're limited to 70-80 minutes of runtime. Then you get "instant-on", but you're limited to the photos you can take within an hour off the charger, which also renders it useless as a camera, and compares unfavorably to the iPhone . If it had a sleep state then we could compare apples to apples. Since the iPhone's default "off" state is sleep, that's what counts for "turning it on".
    - DrewADesign 3mo ago
      You don’t even need to technically justify the comparison. Apples and oranges can be compared if you’re discussing how useful each is for a particular purpose or in a particular context. Oranges are nice because the skin proffers protection from soil and bumps during travel. Apples are nice because you don’t have to peel them or deal with sections — you just bite hunks off of it. If you’re not throwing it in your bag, the shortcomings of the Apple might be totally irrelevant. If you’re going on a picnic, the convenience of the Apple might be less important. Similarly, it wouldn’t make much sense to abstractly compare whether moving trucks or motorcycles are better. It makes complete sense to say one has better cargo capacity, and one is way more fun to operate.

serf 3mo ago

you can get a zero booting under 10 seconds fairly reliably. still slower than a hot phone with an app, but it's faster than 22s.

luqtas 3mo ago

i built my own camera out of a Zero 2W [0] and by disabling Picam2 and letting the OS (Debian Bullseye) idle, i can get 2 days of shots and some videos while i walk around the city/hiking out of 3 18650 batteries... bringing 3 spare batteries in my backpack never put me needing battery in any situation! starting Picam2 takes a fraction of a second [0] https://happort.org/camera https://happort.org/camera

iamnothere 3mo ago

I bet this could be changed to seconds if a unikernel type approach were used. There’s no need to boot a full OS. I understand the developer starting with Linux, though, as I’m sure it’s easier for debugging.

dofm 3mo ago

The early Sony Alpha A7 cameras run Android (really: you could jailbreak and write your own PlayMemories apps) https://github.com/ma1co/sony-pmca-re https://github.com/ma1co/sony-pmca-re https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/59226/does-the-sony-a7-run-android-or-if-not-is-there-another-way-to-write-applicati https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/59226/does-the-son... So there must have been a way to do this at that time. (I suspect a simpler subsystem does initial boot response). I did contemplate building something around one of the Arducam modules and an RP2350.

numpad0 3mo ago
They always ran Linux and Sony ported AOSP userland to it. So it's slightly different to real Android, and those cameras are not always in that mode.
mschuster91 3mo ago
> So there must have been a way to do this at that time. (I suspect a simpler subsystem does initial boot response). They heavily use suspend-to-flash.

beezlewax 3mo ago

Cameras shouldn't need to boot at all.

rlt 3mo ago
Pretty much everything has a boot sequence of some kind, it just might be very quick.

interloxia 3mo ago

My kid has a Fisher-Price Kid Tough camera. It's excellent for us but the pictures are so bad even the kid is disappointed. It would be fun to repace the guts with something like this project but a long boot time is a deal breaker. Perhaps the software can be optimised or a DIY friendly pi pico project is the way.

a96 3mo ago

Comparing that to a real camera: I can "quick draw" pick up a Nikon DSLR that's off, flick the power switch and hit the shutter button one handed in one motion as fast as I can move and there's a good picture on the screen as soon as I let go of the trigger. Double click trash can and it's gone. Either will take less than half a second. Battery life is so long I usually forget to charge it. I suspect the power switch is just a "key lock" that prevents triggering anything because there's no delay. Either that or it's a wakeup in the microcontroller range of timing. (You can easily get jank by filling up the buffer or slow memory card or autofocusing on something impossible, possibly in the dark etc, of course.)

shrx 3mo ago

There have been attempts to make the Pi boot faster (by disabling the initialization of various subsystems), e.g.: https://github.com/IronOxidizer/instant-pi https://github.com/IronOxidizer/instant-pi https://himeshp.blogspot.com/2018/08/fast-boot-with-raspberry-pi.html https://himeshp.blogspot.com/2018/08/fast-boot-with-raspberr... https://kittenlabs.de/blog/2024/09/01/extreme-pi-boot-optimization/ https://kittenlabs.de/blog/2024/09/01/extreme-pi-boot-optimi... (previously featured here too https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41420597 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41420597)

ianbooker 3mo ago

Things lost to time: The Minolta Dimage A1 had contacts for detecting when gripped, so it could ready itself without any button pressed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_Dimage_A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minolta_Dimage_A1 (You see it in the pic, but its not described in the article).

witx 3mo ago

I agree with the premise but that's a bad comparison. If you have your iphone off, do you get to the camera in 3 seconds as well, after booting?

KingOfCoders 3mo ago

Nice, my Google 10 I feel boots rather fast but I'd say 5sec to boot, unlock, camera +5 secs so it would be 10 for me - 3 seconds I envy you.

voidUpdate 3mo ago

https://mitxela.com/projects/thermal_paper_polaroid https://mitxela.com/projects/thermal_paper_polaroid talks about making a camera with a raspberry pi, and by using Buildroot they got it down to acceptable boot times

numpad0 3mo ago

Sub 2-second booting Linux is generally possible, either by bundling everything into a big image or by creating a fixed hibernation file and resuming from it. That's what they do for real embedded systems, but the downside is that they tend to be monolithic and not so update or modding friendly. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTcP3xeLrEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTcP3xeLrEY