6 ms·

Yeah but they could've picked something that at least lets the 4 byte host talk to a 5 byte one. Like if I have 8.8.8.8 and they want to give me 8.8.8.8.0, cool

by mahboi 3mo ago

Yeah but they could've picked something that at least lets the 4 byte host talk to a 5 byte one. Like if I have 8.8.8.8 and they want to give me 8.8.8.8.0, cool. Or make it 8 bytes instead of 5, same thing.

convolvatron 3mo ago
well, if you want to add an extra byte you kinda have a problem, since v4 is fixed format and is actually cooked into hardware in a lot of places. so if you want to keep v4 mostly untouched you have to use an option, which is going to be pretty slow on the backbone. you can send a packet from an extended address host to a vanilla v4 host if you map the address space into a range like you suggest..but that v4 host just has no way of sending a message back..so its kinda useless
- mahboi 3mo ago
  It'd be useless until everyone switches to the 5-byte thing and people can start putting something besides 0 into that last byte. But at least they could turn on v5 or whatever it's called without having to think about it. Right now I could have two hosts that both agree to use ipv6 and it's still hard because you have to reconfigure everything.
  - Dagger2 3mo ago
    Why the double standard? v6 already gives you what you're asking for here: you can turn it on without thinking about it, but actually using the extra addresses from it requires reconfiguring some things (not everything, mind). Why is that bad when it's v6 doing it, but good when it's your 5-byte thing doing it? Or did you just not think through this enough to realize you were asking for something we already have?
    - mahboi 3mo ago
      Because you can't generally turn on v6 without thinking about it. Maybe consumers can, even then not always cause it messes random things up. Power users and offices maybe can't. Service operators really can't. If it were as easy as you're saying, all those things like Github would already at least support v6.
      - Dagger2 3mo ago
        Windows, Linux, OSX, Android and iOS all ship with v6 enabled by default out of the box, so it's already turned on without you needing to think about it. You have to deliberately go out of your way for this not to be the case. > If it were as easy as you're saying, all those things like Github would already at least support v6. This isn't the "turn it on" stage, it's the "people can start putting something besides 0 into that last byte" stage.
        mahboi 3mo ago
        You need ipv4 to reach GitHub right now. The ipv5 "people can turn it on but not use the last bytes" stage wouldn't require ipv4 to reach it.
        Dagger2 3mo ago
        Do I? I don't have v4 on this machine and I can reach GitHub, so that appears to be untrue. Also GitHub would need to continue having v4 so that v4 users could reach it, so it's untrue from that perspective too. At some point or another, you have to do the work to support longer addresses. In your proposal, where is that work being done? Because right now it looks like you're either massively underestimating how much work it is or you're just outright ignoring it, but only for your own proposal and not for v6.
        mahboi 3mo ago
        Github.com doesn't have an AAAA record, so I don't know how you're reaching it if you don't have a v4 anywhere. Even if they had that, they said that basic features like cloning repos won't work over v6. Only one example of many services like this. > In your proposal, where is that work being done? Work for longer v5 addrs would be similar in difficulty to what v6 had to do, but it'd be done at a different time and place. Only thing that's the same is you need a new packet format that hardware can read, which could literally be the v6 format repurposed. I'd say 8 bytes is enough, leave the rest as 0s. Ipv5 would share routing tables, DHCP, DNS, NAT, and various middleboxes with ipv4, unlike v6 which made separate versions of those with their own state. V5 with 4-byte addrs works with those instantly, no chicken and egg. Then those get patched or replaced to support longer addresses. Importantly, the upgraded versions easily support ipv4 too, so there's no reason not to upgrade.

by mahboi 3mo ago

convolvatron 3mo ago

well, if you want to add an extra byte you kinda have a problem, since v4 is fixed format and is actually cooked into hardware in a lot of places. so if you want to keep v4 mostly untouched you have to use an option, which is going to be pretty slow on the backbone. you can send a packet from an extended address host to a vanilla v4 host if you map the address space into a range like you suggest..but that v4 host just has no way of sending a message back..so its kinda useless

mahboi 3mo ago
It'd be useless until everyone switches to the 5-byte thing and people can start putting something besides 0 into that last byte. But at least they could turn on v5 or whatever it's called without having to think about it. Right now I could have two hosts that both agree to use ipv6 and it's still hard because you have to reconfigure everything.
- Dagger2 3mo ago
  Why the double standard? v6 already gives you what you're asking for here: you can turn it on without thinking about it, but actually using the extra addresses from it requires reconfiguring some things (not everything, mind). Why is that bad when it's v6 doing it, but good when it's your 5-byte thing doing it? Or did you just not think through this enough to realize you were asking for something we already have?
  - mahboi 3mo ago
    Because you can't generally turn on v6 without thinking about it. Maybe consumers can, even then not always cause it messes random things up. Power users and offices maybe can't. Service operators really can't. If it were as easy as you're saying, all those things like Github would already at least support v6.
    - Dagger2 3mo ago
      Windows, Linux, OSX, Android and iOS all ship with v6 enabled by default out of the box, so it's already turned on without you needing to think about it. You have to deliberately go out of your way for this not to be the case. > If it were as easy as you're saying, all those things like Github would already at least support v6. This isn't the "turn it on" stage, it's the "people can start putting something besides 0 into that last byte" stage.
      - mahboi 3mo ago
        You need ipv4 to reach GitHub right now. The ipv5 "people can turn it on but not use the last bytes" stage wouldn't require ipv4 to reach it.
        Dagger2 3mo ago
        Do I? I don't have v4 on this machine and I can reach GitHub, so that appears to be untrue. Also GitHub would need to continue having v4 so that v4 users could reach it, so it's untrue from that perspective too. At some point or another, you have to do the work to support longer addresses. In your proposal, where is that work being done? Because right now it looks like you're either massively underestimating how much work it is or you're just outright ignoring it, but only for your own proposal and not for v6.
        mahboi 3mo ago
        Github.com doesn't have an AAAA record, so I don't know how you're reaching it if you don't have a v4 anywhere. Even if they had that, they said that basic features like cloning repos won't work over v6. Only one example of many services like this. > In your proposal, where is that work being done? Work for longer v5 addrs would be similar in difficulty to what v6 had to do, but it'd be done at a different time and place. Only thing that's the same is you need a new packet format that hardware can read, which could literally be the v6 format repurposed. I'd say 8 bytes is enough, leave the rest as 0s. Ipv5 would share routing tables, DHCP, DNS, NAT, and various middleboxes with ipv4, unlike v6 which made separate versions of those with their own state. V5 with 4-byte addrs works with those instantly, no chicken and egg. Then those get patched or replaced to support longer addresses. Importantly, the upgraded versions easily support ipv4 too, so there's no reason not to upgrade.