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Because 99% of apps would request it & not function without it, desensitising users into blindly accepting it. Most apps do have a legitimate reason for accessi

Because 99% of apps would request it & not function without it, desensitising users into blindly accepting it. Most apps do have a legitimate reason for accessing the internet, so a binary yes/no wouldn’t achieve much anyway. I just don’t think it’s an effective way of solving the problem.

fauigerzigerk 3mo ago
100% of users have legitimate reasons to block internet access for some apps. If internet access wasn't granted by default, a lot more apps would function without it. Many other apps wouldn't exist at all, because their only reason to exist is to spy on users.
- tokioyoyo 3mo ago
  Not going to lie, it would be an absolute hell to develop an app that's actually used without getting crash/analytics.
  - throwaway27448 3mo ago
    Surely this could (or should) be facilitated through the app store.
    - BergaDev 3mo ago
      That'd just be kicking up another lawsuit for giving app stores too much control
  - AlecSchueler 3mo ago
    Sounds like normal development up until ten years ago. Somehow we managed.
    - tokioyoyo 3mo ago
      10 years ago we already had the same tools. 15 years ago they were starting up. If you wanna go further, 20 years ago we didn’t have that much of distribution, users, or differences in software/hardware. Shipping speeds were also much slower.
  - kevincox 3mo ago
    We do it. We give the user the option to export debugging information and send it to us.
    - tokioyoyo 3mo ago
      Are your users technical people or non-technical? From my personal experience, once you pass certain number of users, most bugs are caught by your own systems through reported telemetry. It’s very rare for non-technicals to report a bug, as it’s easier to close the app and switch to competitor.
  - st3fan 3mo ago
    On iOS those are collected and sent to the developer via the OS so you would still get them via Xcode. Sentry would obviously not work.
evanjrowley 3mo ago
The internet access permission should be implemented. Users of macOS are already accustomed to the local network access permission. Even if it's not the most effective way to raise awareness, it does put pressure on developers to be explicit about the connectivity requirements with users. It would also be a great way to audit an app's local-first / offline-first claim without having to do a network packet capture. Want telemetry? Send it through Apple and Google. Given Apple's late history and latest trends in Android development, I see them both favoring this approach.
abecedarius 3mo ago
Permission should be in the form of a capability, which need not end up on the built-in OS network capability. If an app insists on your car's steering wheel, you can be like "sure, kid, here's your Help Daddy Drive(TM)".
throwaway27448 3mo ago
> Most apps do have a legitimate reason for accessing the internet I just flat out think this is bullshit
- rationalist 3mo ago
  You are right, it is BS. Non-multiplayer games, clock, camera, contacts, phone, text message, file explorer, keyboard, launcher, notes, document viewer/editor, image viewer, audio recorder... Most of the apps on my phone do not need internet access.
  - runjake 3mo ago
    Almost all of the apps you mentioned sync data to, or access data from iCloud in the vast majority of use cases. I mention iCloud here because this submission is about iOS. That said, I'd love to have a new "Internet access" permission for apps, so users had the choice. Perhaps even separate "Allow iCloud" and "Allow Internet" but that's probably too granular for Apple's taste.
    - arcanemachiner 3mo ago
      For that case, iOS could just run a system daemon to shuttle the app data to/from iCloud. The app itself should not need internet access for this. I have no idea if this is what already happens, but I feel like it might be. (Why would each app have all these network connections when the system could just manage it instead?)
  - Larrikin 3mo ago
    Every single one of those, except for the games, is a pre-installed built in app. It seems like you just don't use apps.
    - rationalist 3mo ago
      > is a … app > you just don't use apps. An app isn't an "app" if I don't install it? I have banking "apps" and others which obviously do require internet access to function properly, but the hundreds of flashlight apps in the app store should not need the internet. The app I use to back up my text messages and contacts does not need internet, but the other app that I use to copy those backup files and pictures off my phone to other computers does. The sad thing is, even if I take steps to prevent others getting access to my contacts or text messages, sketchy companies will still get those same contacts and quite possibly most of those messages from everyone else. We need "herd immunity" when it comes to digital privacy, but it's unlikely to ever happen.
RedComet 3mo ago
"99% of apps would request it & not function without it" Apple could refuse to publish them, then. Isn't that why we are forced to go through the App Store? Because Apple ensures every app there works in the best interest of the user?
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jooize 3mo ago
Internet access could be on by default for apps, with no prompt, but a toggle in Settings.

fauigerzigerk 3mo ago

100% of users have legitimate reasons to block internet access for some apps. If internet access wasn't granted by default, a lot more apps would function without it. Many other apps wouldn't exist at all, because their only reason to exist is to spy on users.

tokioyoyo 3mo ago
Not going to lie, it would be an absolute hell to develop an app that's actually used without getting crash/analytics.
- throwaway27448 3mo ago
  Surely this could (or should) be facilitated through the app store.
  - BergaDev 3mo ago
    That'd just be kicking up another lawsuit for giving app stores too much control
- AlecSchueler 3mo ago
  Sounds like normal development up until ten years ago. Somehow we managed.
  - tokioyoyo 3mo ago
    10 years ago we already had the same tools. 15 years ago they were starting up. If you wanna go further, 20 years ago we didn’t have that much of distribution, users, or differences in software/hardware. Shipping speeds were also much slower.
- kevincox 3mo ago
  We do it. We give the user the option to export debugging information and send it to us.
  - tokioyoyo 3mo ago
    Are your users technical people or non-technical? From my personal experience, once you pass certain number of users, most bugs are caught by your own systems through reported telemetry. It’s very rare for non-technicals to report a bug, as it’s easier to close the app and switch to competitor.
- st3fan 3mo ago
  On iOS those are collected and sent to the developer via the OS so you would still get them via Xcode. Sentry would obviously not work.

evanjrowley 3mo ago

The internet access permission should be implemented. Users of macOS are already accustomed to the local network access permission. Even if it's not the most effective way to raise awareness, it does put pressure on developers to be explicit about the connectivity requirements with users. It would also be a great way to audit an app's local-first / offline-first claim without having to do a network packet capture. Want telemetry? Send it through Apple and Google. Given Apple's late history and latest trends in Android development, I see them both favoring this approach.

abecedarius 3mo ago

Permission should be in the form of a capability, which need not end up on the built-in OS network capability. If an app insists on your car's steering wheel, you can be like "sure, kid, here's your Help Daddy Drive(TM)".

throwaway27448 3mo ago

> Most apps do have a legitimate reason for accessing the internet I just flat out think this is bullshit

rationalist 3mo ago
You are right, it is BS. Non-multiplayer games, clock, camera, contacts, phone, text message, file explorer, keyboard, launcher, notes, document viewer/editor, image viewer, audio recorder... Most of the apps on my phone do not need internet access.
- runjake 3mo ago
  Almost all of the apps you mentioned sync data to, or access data from iCloud in the vast majority of use cases. I mention iCloud here because this submission is about iOS. That said, I'd love to have a new "Internet access" permission for apps, so users had the choice. Perhaps even separate "Allow iCloud" and "Allow Internet" but that's probably too granular for Apple's taste.
  - arcanemachiner 3mo ago
    For that case, iOS could just run a system daemon to shuttle the app data to/from iCloud. The app itself should not need internet access for this. I have no idea if this is what already happens, but I feel like it might be. (Why would each app have all these network connections when the system could just manage it instead?)
- Larrikin 3mo ago
  Every single one of those, except for the games, is a pre-installed built in app. It seems like you just don't use apps.
  - rationalist 3mo ago
    > is a … app > you just don't use apps. An app isn't an "app" if I don't install it? I have banking "apps" and others which obviously do require internet access to function properly, but the hundreds of flashlight apps in the app store should not need the internet. The app I use to back up my text messages and contacts does not need internet, but the other app that I use to copy those backup files and pictures off my phone to other computers does. The sad thing is, even if I take steps to prevent others getting access to my contacts or text messages, sketchy companies will still get those same contacts and quite possibly most of those messages from everyone else. We need "herd immunity" when it comes to digital privacy, but it's unlikely to ever happen.

RedComet 3mo ago

"99% of apps would request it & not function without it" Apple could refuse to publish them, then. Isn't that why we are forced to go through the App Store? Because Apple ensures every app there works in the best interest of the user?

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jooize 3mo ago

Internet access could be on by default for apps, with no prompt, but a toggle in Settings.