16 ms·

Counterintuitively, it's probably the unrealistically high maintenance standards that lead to 1) no available qualified mechanics, and 2) incredibly high prices

Counterintuitively, it's probably the unrealistically high maintenance standards that lead to 1) no available qualified mechanics, and 2) incredibly high prices, resulting in 3) deferring whatever is possible to defer. This is the situation in the US; I imagine costs are doubly impactful in a country like France.

NordSteve 3mo ago
It's certainly possible to maintain GA aircraft to a high standard and not break the bank. For example, a flying club I'm in has Cessna 172s for $116/hr wet with no-compromises maintenance.
- ultrarunner 3mo ago
  If you're not directly involved in the maintenance, I am skeptical. For example, many flying clubs only exist because they have members who are A&Ps / IAs, who maintain the plane in consideration of membership. That's a workaround for the problem I'm presenting. I won't say it's impossible, but it's increasingly difficult and location-dependent.
- vwcx 3mo ago
  what's the club buy in and annual fee? I instruct out of a 150 and $125/hr is the cheapest I can justify charging.
  - NordSteve 3mo ago
    $13800 transferable membership and $220/mo.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
dirtbagskier 3mo ago
[dead]
pixl97 3mo ago
[flagged]
- robcohen 3mo ago
  So right now, A&Ps make about 120-150 per hour, and they have the skills to get hired at dealerships where the hourly is above 200. There are not enough A&Ps. I understand the logic you're using when you say you're happy that the standards are high. What you don't understand is how many A&Ps pencil whip annuals, or overlook corrosion or other safety issues all the time. They are overworked, and spend their time focused on a lot of box checking things that do not matter much and not enough time focusing on the things that do. Let me make it clearer. If you used the same standards for your car, you'd have to get it fully reinspected every year and fix everything. A little corrosion on your hubcaps? Replace all of them (at 20x the cost you're used to). A chip in your windshield (replace the entire windshield at 10x the cost). Etc etc. Source: I am studying for the A&P and I own a Cessna 182. The regs really do need to change for smaller certificated aircraft (such as changing annuals to semi-annuals). Look up Mike Busch and his videos on what reforms should look like. I just had my plane in for an annual. No significant issues. Took 5 months. My plane was in the shop for 5 months. Remember, this is required ANNUALLY. That's how bad the shortage is right now. It's bad enough that I'm willing to take 6 months off work to go __become__ an A&P so I don't need to deal with them anymore.
  - markus_zhang 3mo ago
    This sounds crazy. I wonder how it looks like in Canada. BTW A&P course only takes 6 months?
  - _jss 3mo ago
    Since you are also going for your A&P, would love to hear your assessment of build-assist planes and modern rotax powerplants!
    - robcohen 3mo ago
      Happy to let you know once I finish the LSRM course at rainbow aviation next year when I'll work on experimentals and Rotax engines. I'm waiting for the MOSAIC refresh that's expected this year to take the new course.
echoangle 3mo ago
Citation needed. Afaik they mostly crash from pilot error, not technical problems caused by too little maintenance.
- bombcar 3mo ago
  The vast majority of GA crashes are pilot error directly or indirectly (taking off without fuel is "technically" a mechanical issue but really pilot failure). Equipment failure is pretty low on list.
- ultrarunner 3mo ago
  I just went through a bunch of reports while I'm on call at work. Yes, pilot error is far and away the biggest official cause (although I've read some reports along the lines of "wing fell off", cause: pilot's failure to keep airplane flying with one wing). Pilots make mistakes. But as with so many things it just isn't that simple. That said, there are a ton of tools available now that give massively enhanced situational awareness to keep pilots from making mistakes. Cooking a cylinder on takeoff should not happen anymore with fully instrumented EGT/CHT displays and alarms. And indeed, powerplant failures are way down despite flying the same powerplants. But for some reason engine monitors cost thousands [https://sarasotaavionics.com/search?q=engine+monitor https://sarasotaavionics.com/search?q=engine+monitor]. Many of the dwindling numbers of A&Ps don't know how (and so decline) to install them, and only authorized inspectors (a fraction of licensed mechanics) are allowed to sign off on an installation to make it legal. And when they do, they're told their license is on the line if a mistake is found. So when a pilot burns or sticks a valve, has to navigate a partial power situation, and in a moment of extreme stress makes an error in emergency landing, was this a technical problem? A regulatory one? A monopolistic economic problem? Or just blind pilot error?
jmward01 3mo ago
Aviation is in a huge rut. A major issue is that innovation is nearly dead. Want to bring a new aircraft to market? Got 5-10 years to get it certified while not being able to sell it to a market size of....? How about a new engine? In GA we fly 80yo designs around not because they are great, but because nobody can innovate to bring in the better stuff. I have a lot of hope for electric aviation because a new regulatory space and simpler designs may mean faster certification which could lead to real innovation in the space.
- airstrike 3mo ago
  I'd read this blog post.
  - adastra22 3mo ago
    You just did.
- clarkmoody 3mo ago
  Don't forget that the incumbents will fight to keep regulatory barriers high.
- MaKey 3mo ago
  Every now and then there are some people who try to innovate in this space. Example: The guys from corsairpower (https://corsairpower.com/ https://corsairpower.com/) who put a marine engine in a Cessna 172. However, it seems like they get stuck because of small market size, regulations and incumbents who don't want the status quo to change.
schmookeeg 3mo ago
There are more responses to "hard to schedule, hard to afford" than "defer everything possible" You can fly something smaller and more inline with your budget You can share the plane with partners You can get a motorcycle or boat instead. ...I do not disagree that your presented "option 3" is a common one. That hurts me as both an instructor and a mechanic.

NordSteve 3mo ago

It's certainly possible to maintain GA aircraft to a high standard and not break the bank. For example, a flying club I'm in has Cessna 172s for $116/hr wet with no-compromises maintenance.

ultrarunner 3mo ago
If you're not directly involved in the maintenance, I am skeptical. For example, many flying clubs only exist because they have members who are A&Ps / IAs, who maintain the plane in consideration of membership. That's a workaround for the problem I'm presenting. I won't say it's impossible, but it's increasingly difficult and location-dependent.
vwcx 3mo ago
what's the club buy in and annual fee? I instruct out of a 150 and $125/hr is the cheapest I can justify charging.
- NordSteve 3mo ago
  $13800 transferable membership and $220/mo.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

dirtbagskier 3mo ago

[dead]

pixl97 3mo ago

[flagged]

robcohen 3mo ago
So right now, A&Ps make about 120-150 per hour, and they have the skills to get hired at dealerships where the hourly is above 200. There are not enough A&Ps. I understand the logic you're using when you say you're happy that the standards are high. What you don't understand is how many A&Ps pencil whip annuals, or overlook corrosion or other safety issues all the time. They are overworked, and spend their time focused on a lot of box checking things that do not matter much and not enough time focusing on the things that do. Let me make it clearer. If you used the same standards for your car, you'd have to get it fully reinspected every year and fix everything. A little corrosion on your hubcaps? Replace all of them (at 20x the cost you're used to). A chip in your windshield (replace the entire windshield at 10x the cost). Etc etc. Source: I am studying for the A&P and I own a Cessna 182. The regs really do need to change for smaller certificated aircraft (such as changing annuals to semi-annuals). Look up Mike Busch and his videos on what reforms should look like. I just had my plane in for an annual. No significant issues. Took 5 months. My plane was in the shop for 5 months. Remember, this is required ANNUALLY. That's how bad the shortage is right now. It's bad enough that I'm willing to take 6 months off work to go __become__ an A&P so I don't need to deal with them anymore.
- markus_zhang 3mo ago
  This sounds crazy. I wonder how it looks like in Canada. BTW A&P course only takes 6 months?
- _jss 3mo ago
  Since you are also going for your A&P, would love to hear your assessment of build-assist planes and modern rotax powerplants!
  - robcohen 3mo ago
    Happy to let you know once I finish the LSRM course at rainbow aviation next year when I'll work on experimentals and Rotax engines. I'm waiting for the MOSAIC refresh that's expected this year to take the new course.

echoangle 3mo ago

Citation needed. Afaik they mostly crash from pilot error, not technical problems caused by too little maintenance.

bombcar 3mo ago
The vast majority of GA crashes are pilot error directly or indirectly (taking off without fuel is "technically" a mechanical issue but really pilot failure). Equipment failure is pretty low on list.
ultrarunner 3mo ago
I just went through a bunch of reports while I'm on call at work. Yes, pilot error is far and away the biggest official cause (although I've read some reports along the lines of "wing fell off", cause: pilot's failure to keep airplane flying with one wing). Pilots make mistakes. But as with so many things it just isn't that simple. That said, there are a ton of tools available now that give massively enhanced situational awareness to keep pilots from making mistakes. Cooking a cylinder on takeoff should not happen anymore with fully instrumented EGT/CHT displays and alarms. And indeed, powerplant failures are way down despite flying the same powerplants. But for some reason engine monitors cost thousands [https://sarasotaavionics.com/search?q=engine+monitor https://sarasotaavionics.com/search?q=engine+monitor]. Many of the dwindling numbers of A&Ps don't know how (and so decline) to install them, and only authorized inspectors (a fraction of licensed mechanics) are allowed to sign off on an installation to make it legal. And when they do, they're told their license is on the line if a mistake is found. So when a pilot burns or sticks a valve, has to navigate a partial power situation, and in a moment of extreme stress makes an error in emergency landing, was this a technical problem? A regulatory one? A monopolistic economic problem? Or just blind pilot error?

jmward01 3mo ago

Aviation is in a huge rut. A major issue is that innovation is nearly dead. Want to bring a new aircraft to market? Got 5-10 years to get it certified while not being able to sell it to a market size of....? How about a new engine? In GA we fly 80yo designs around not because they are great, but because nobody can innovate to bring in the better stuff. I have a lot of hope for electric aviation because a new regulatory space and simpler designs may mean faster certification which could lead to real innovation in the space.

airstrike 3mo ago
I'd read this blog post.
- adastra22 3mo ago
  You just did.
clarkmoody 3mo ago
Don't forget that the incumbents will fight to keep regulatory barriers high.
MaKey 3mo ago
Every now and then there are some people who try to innovate in this space. Example: The guys from corsairpower (https://corsairpower.com/ https://corsairpower.com/) who put a marine engine in a Cessna 172. However, it seems like they get stuck because of small market size, regulations and incumbents who don't want the status quo to change.

schmookeeg 3mo ago

There are more responses to "hard to schedule, hard to afford" than "defer everything possible" You can fly something smaller and more inline with your budget You can share the plane with partners You can get a motorcycle or boat instead. ...I do not disagree that your presented "option 3" is a common one. That hurts me as both an instructor and a mechanic.